Business
Interested in learning how to get a job at a major tech company like Microsoft? Join us as we chat with Aleina Wachtel, program manager II at Microsoft. In this episode, Aleina shares how she excelled during her interview with a highly competitive company. Listen as she shares specific tips on how she negotiated her offer to get over $75,000 in additional benefits by simply asking a few easy questions. Episode Transcript: Page 1 of 18 Aleina Wachtel: It's so important for all us, women especially but I think everybody, to talk about these kinds of things because it's only in the benefit of the employer that we all keep it taboo. So I've coached so many people, I've actually helped about five to eight people who have now come into Microsoft after me to negotiate with their offers, and they all 100% have been successful. Rachel Jimenez: Wow. Aleina Wachtel: So I have a pretty good track record, but for me it's about knowing your worth and using some sort of leverage point. Rachel Jimenez: I'm Rachael Jimenez Megan Elledge: And I'm Megan Elledge. Rachel Jimenez: Welcome to How'd You Get That Job, a podcast from Claremont Graduate University about successful careers and the stories behind them. Rachel Jimenez: Aleina, I'm so excited to have you on our show. Thank you so much for being here today. Aleina Wachtel: Thank you so much for the opportunity. Rachel Jimenez: Oh, no problem. So, you're an alumn from Claremont Graduate University's mathematics program and you are currently a program manager II at Microsoft. Can you talk about what that means and what you do as a program manager at Microsoft? Aleina Wachtel: Absolutely. So, program managers, as I've spoken to people before about this, there isn't a major for that, and so it's kind of one of those disciplines that you learn a little bit or a lot of it on the job. But essentially what a PM does, abbreviated PM, is the liaison between the technical side of the business and the business side of the business. So, it can manifest in a lot of different forms, but the way that we talk about the PM role is you have to do everything that you can to make the program or the initiative successful, and so I'm often working with engineers and data scientists to enable some sort of capability, depending on the team. Aleina Wachtel: This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 2 of 18 So, I'm on the data insights in growth org, so the data team for Microsoft Office, and what we do is build platforms and tools to enable the rest of Office to be data-driven. So, in my job we are working with both the partner teams, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, et cetera, and getting their requirements, and then we're working with the engineers and data scientists to make that happen, all in service of our customers at the end who are using Office products. So PMs are the little mini CEOs of different capabilities or features of whatever tooling that we have at Microsoft. Rachel Jimenez: Okay, and then how do you use what you studied at CGU on the job, or do you? Aleina Wachtel: That's a great question. So am I writing equations on a whiteboard? Not exactly, but I absolutely have to use my problem solving, critical thinking and technical skills as a PM, and it really helps that I'm on a data team specifically because it feels like I have the vocabulary to be able to speak eloquently on the things that I'm working on with data scientists and engineers. So, if they're building something for example that allows specific metrics and different pivoting of data sets for a particular capability or feature that's being created in Word, for example, I can then say, "Yes, we need to work with the experimentation team and say that we need to have a bigger sample size for this to be statistically significant." And I know what that means because of the math background that I have. Also, just as a side note, having a master's degree I think has really helped me in my career both in negotiation and being able to kind of come in to the entry level position with a little bit more background than I would've if I just stopped after going to Harvey Mudd. Rachel Jimenez: So you mentioned negotiation. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What kind of negotiation? What did you do to leverage? Aleina Wachtel: Absolutely. So, that's an area that I'm really passionate about because when I was lucky enough to be a student at Harvey Mudd where I did my undergraduate studies they talked a lot about how women historically are less likely to negotiate their offers than men are. I don't want to necessarily spend time on going into the why, but I felt obligated on behalf of women to make sure that I negotiated my offer. Rachel Jimenez: Not this woman. Aleina Wachtel: Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It was crazy because I'm the first person in my family to go to college, and when I got the first offer from Microsoft to work full-time, and it was six figures, and there was like a signing bonus, and stock. I was blown away, there was a lot of happy tears and crying, and I couldn't believe it because I was going to be making essentially more money than both of my parents combined, but I knew I needed to negotiate because that was something that had been instilled in me as incredibly important. My parents thought I was crazy. They were like, "What are you doing? Don't do that." But I said, "No." I'm lucky enough to have a lot of mentors in the career services both at CGU and Mudd who were like, "You got to do this." This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 3 of 18 Aleina Wachtel: So essentially all I did, and I give a lot of coaching on this, is you go into your call with the recruiter. They've given you the offer, this is the opportunity for them to answer all your questions, and I always say start off with some warmup questions. What team am I going to be on? What's the manager like? What's it like to live in the Seattle area? Write down a bunch of things that make you comfortable, you're warming up, you're able to kind of make sure that you're at a good place to actually do this conversation, and it also puts the recruiter in a place where they're thinking, "I'm so helpful, I'm just answering questions." And then you ask the pivot question. Aleina Wachtel: So you've asked all the easy questions and then you do the pivot. So I was wondering, how exactly were the figures determined? And then the recruiter will say something along the lines of blah, blah, blah business needs, standardizes the salary for level, blah, blah, blah, it doesn't really matter what it is, but they'll give an answer. Then you say, "Well, I just wanted to know if my, insert leverage here, is being taken into account." And so that was literally all I did. It was two questions. It was how were the figures determined, and I wanted to know if my master's degree was being taken to account since I know that many other applicants are coming in with a bachelor's degree. The recruiter was like, "Oh, you know what? Let me go double-check. Don't sign anything. I'll get back to you in a couple of days." And they had come back and that offer, I'm going to be super transparent here, so it was a salary that was nonnegotiable because, again, that is standardized for the level, but that's fine, but the incoming stock award went from $60,000 to $120,000. Rachel Jimenez: It doubled, wow. Aleina Wachtel: Just because I said, "Hey, I have a master's. What are you going to do about that?" And the signing bonus went from $10,000 to $25,000. So the reason I, one, am super transparent about the numbers is because it's so important for all of us, women especially but I think everybody, to talk about these kinds of things because it's only in the benefit of the employer that we all keep it taboo, and so I've coached so many people. I've actually helped about five to eight people who have now come into Microsoft after me to negotiate with their offers, and they've all 100% been successful. So I have a pretty good track record, but for me it's about knowing your worth and using some sort of leverage point. That can be a master's degree, that can be a dual degree. I have a friend of mine who did the 3-2 Program with Harvey Mudd and Claremont McKenna where they studied business and engineering. So I said, "Hey, that's awesome. Bring that up." Sometimes it's a competing offer, sometimes it's your minor, you have this other capability that maybe other applicants don't have. So, try to be creative on what the leverage point is and it never ever hurts to ask, because the worst thing that they can do is say, "Sorry, it's nonnegotiable but we're still really excited to have you." They're not going to rescind the offer. Rachel Jimenez: Exactly. Aleina Wachtel: Which is I think one of the fears that my parents had. So, I get very excited about that topic. This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 4 of 18 Rachel Jimenez: That's amazing, that was so insightful. I really appreciate you sharing that with our audience and being transparent about the numbers. Aleina Wachtel: Absolutely. Rachel Jimenez: One quick question about that. Were you afraid? Were you nervous at all going in, asking that question or were you ... I mean, you seem like a very confident woman, were you just like, "I got this, I'm going for it"? Had you practiced with anyone? Aleina Wachtel: I'm going to be honest, of course I was nervous. This is the only full-time offer that I had. I didn't have leverage of specifically other offers, but I think I was lucky enough, again, from my education and the resources here at CGU and Mudd that I had confidence during the call. Rachel Jimenez: Right. Aleina Wachtel: Leading up to the call, yes, incredibly nervous, but once ... I'm also a singer, so an analogy that I'll bring is right before you actually are on stage singing, it's gigantically fast, insane heartbeat and you're just sweating, and I'm coughing, and I'm nervous, and then as soon as I sing the first note it's just I'm at peace. I feel similarly, because as a PM that entire job is all about influence, and being able to work with a lot of different personality types and again, specifically influence without authority. So people hear manager, they're like, "Oh, so you're a manager and you have direct reports." No, no, no, no, I manage the program and everything that needs to happen for it and to end, but there's a lot of moving parts and a lot of people that you have to work with for that to be successful. So, you're kind of managing the team without actually being able to be their boss or tell them to do anything. Aleina Wachtel: That's why I think my technical skills really help and my technical education because how do you build credibility with engineers if you aren't able to speak at least at a high level their language. And can people be in the PM discipline without a STEM degree? Absolutely. I think it's incredibly important for the workforce to have a variety of disciplines and backgrounds, but I will say at least for me in my career journey it's just been incredibly helpful to have that because it's something I can lean on, something that can help me speak the language, and it's fundamentally what gives me confidence in those kinds of conversations, and it's again, the first note has sung, now I'm in my zone and it ends up being okay. Rachel Jimenez: Right, that's amazing. Well, thank you for that. So, we know what a program manager does. We know how you got that job a little bit, but can you take us back, how do you go from ... I'm just thinking when you're maybe a 16-year-old and you don't know what you want to be when you grow up, or maybe you This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 5 of 18 did, can you go back and give us a breakdown of the journey that led you to becoming the program manager at Microsoft? Aleina Wachtel: Absolutely. So, like I said, it's not a major, it's not one of the careers that a parent comes into elementary school and it's like, "I'm a program manager." You think when you're a kid fireman, or firewoman, a policeman, policewoman, nurse, teacher. Rachel Jimenez: Nurse, teacher, things you can see, right? Aleina Wachtel: Exactly. So it's not a discipline or career that people necessarily think of, and I myself didn't even know what a PM was until my senior year of college. So backtracking a little bit, as the first person in my family to go to college and knowing from my incredible parents the importance of education I had always worked really hard as a student and thought that I was going to get a PhD from the age of 10 because the idea was that if I'm going to go to college I'm going to really go to college and I'm going to max it out. But I went through a bunch of math and science classes, eventually was able to go to Harvey Mudd and did actual summer undergraduate research, and it was incredible. It ended up resulting in a publication that actually just came out in the Involve mathematics journal, but I realized that I couldn't see myself doing academia type work in the future long-term because I just wanted to be around a lot of different types of people, and I'm more of a breadth person rather than depth, and that's what I love about the PM roles because you have to know a little bit or a medium bit about a lot of things, enough to be dangerous, without being super deep in one area. Research is fundamentally about being really deep in a particular area, especially getting a PhD. Aleina Wachtel: So, I went from thinking I'm going to get a PhD to it's senior year, I'm having a quarter life existential crisis saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm not going to get a PhD. What am I going to do with my life? I just got five years back, what's my next step?" And lucky Claremont Graduate University had this incredible four plus one program where I was able to get my master's in one year in math, so it gave me a little bit more time and also more skillset to be able to be successful in industry, but what specifically in industry was the question. Aleina Wachtel: I had a good friend of mine who had been an intern multiple times in the Bay Area as a software engineer, and he knew me really well, and he had actually worked with other PMs at different companies like Yelp and other startups and such, and he said, "Have you heard of program management?" And I looked at him and I said, "No, what's that?" And he said, "Well, you're the liaison between the technical side and the business side, and it's a lot about communication, and explaining technical concepts in layman terms." And my eyes light up and I was like, "Oh my god, that sounds amazing. Please, sign me up." And I worked incredibly hard to research everything I possibly could. I highly recommend Cracking the PM Interview. It's the PM version of Cracking the Coding Interview, a really common book that people are reading to get ready for tech interviews, and it was enough for me to get this internship at EA, Electronic Arts, the video game company in the Bay Area, and I loved being a PM that summer. It was the summer between my bachelor's and my master's. This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 6 of 18 Aleina Wachtel: I learned what it was like to actually do the things that my friend had told me about, the things I had read about in that book, but I knew that fundamentally I wanted to be closer to family. I grew up in Washington State and living in California for five years for my education was an amazing experience, but hard because I didn't have the funds to be able to go back, so I only saw them at Christmas time and sometimes during the summer. So I missed five years of Thanksgiving. Then my mom, she had been working on her bachelor's degree for over 30 years, and she finally finished it and I wasn't there for her graduation because I couldn't afford to go back to Washington State and see her graduate, and I was doing research at Mudd that summer at the time and I couldn't go back. So, I knew that never again did I want to be that far away, and I didn't need to be in my small town, but being in Seattle was a good distance away where I'd be able to see them more frequently, and so I was incredibly lucky to get a first round interview with Microsoft. Rachel Jimenez: Can you talk about that? How did you get that interview? Aleina Wachtel: Yes. So it was, again, the timeline here is second semester of senior year, which would've been 2016, and I went to the career fair desperately looking for an internship, because that summer between bachelor's and master's was open. I was handing my résumé out like cookies. I was just saying, "Hey, any PM positions available for internship I'd love." EA ended up being the place that I got the offer and did my internship at, but I went to Microsoft's booth and I said, "Hey, are there any internships available?" And again, this is the spring, so they said, "Oh no. We've already finished or filled up all of our roles for this summer." Because they tend to do the majority of the recruiting, not all of it, but most of it in the fall. I said, "Okay. Well I guess I'll just go somewhere else. And they were like, "No, no, wait. We'll take your résumé if you're interested in full-time for summer 2017." Which was like a year and three months away. Well, like, "Okay. See you never." Give them my résumé and I walk away. Aleina Wachtel: I end up going through the whole interview process for EA, get the offer, and then I get an email from Microsoft. I never even applied, and they were like, "Hey, so we saw your résumé. We're thinking hey, we're going to be on campus in April or May timeframe, do you want to have a first round 30 minute interview?" And I started freaking. I'm like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Yes. I don't have any PM experience yet, but yes. Yes please." And again, back to Cracking the PM Interview and reading things online, and talking to other people. Another thing that was really helpful was using other alumni resources. I found someone who had graduated at least from Harvey Mudd who had become a PM at Microsoft. So he spent an hour and a half with me on a Skype call saying, "All right, this is what you can expect." And I was doing all this preparation, and then it went well enough that they said, "Cool." It was only 30 minutes, it was in a classroom in Harvey Mudd, they did the interview and then they said, "Awesome. We'll see you four months from now for your final round interview." Which they don't really do that anymore, but it was this perfect thing where I was like, "Awesome. Exactly what I need." Because guess what's happening in that four months? My internship. Aleina Wachtel: So first round interview with Microsoft happened, then I went to that internship in the Bay Area, and that entire time was studying for my final round, because I knew that I was going to be interviewing in This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 7 of 18 Microsoft later. After the internship I then came back, started my master's at CGU, and then they flew me up to Seattle for four and a half hours of interviews for final round. I had all that experience from EA and also doing clinic and other types of PM skillset demonstrating roles to get the job. It was this amazing thing, and I never ended up having to apply anywhere else because I had that interview lined up ahead of time. Rachel Jimenez: Wow. Aleina Wachtel: It reminds me of something of that I also want to speak to that is another thing that I give a lot of advice to when I'm mentoring a lot of early in career folks. Specifically when you are interviewing you don't have to have exactly the same title over and over again on your résumé to have the experience. So what I mean by that is a lot of people come to me saying, "How do I break into the PM field?" Because it's hard to get PM internships. There are so, so few of them in comparison to software engineering positions. So, let's say you're lucky enough to get one, but even then you only have one on your résumé, like I only had one. So how do you have enough experience to get the job? Aleina Wachtel: The way that I always advise students to talk about their work is to think about the skillset that you want to demonstrate and be able to come up with a compelling story from a variety of experiences, whether that's internships, research, side projects, classes, extracurriculars, even being the president of a association or club. Rachel Jimenez: It could be volunteer, right? Aleina Wachtel: Exactly. Those kinds of things can be told in a compelling way, such that you can then say, "I have the skillset to be successful as," insert whatever you're applying for. So, I'll give you a concrete example of something that I used. So, when I was a student at the Claremont Colleges I was the president of SACNAS, the Society for the Advancement of Chicanos and Native Americans in Science, given that not only am I a first gen college student but also my mom is an immigrant from Mexico. So, I was really passionate about bringing underrepresented minorities into STEM. In that position I had to solo organize funding from five different undergraduate colleges to send 12 people to Washington, D.C., and it was a lot of work. It was having to go and work with different dean of students offices, different departments, sometimes the math departments or the STEM departments themselves provide the funding. It was all over the place, and this was for, again, five different colleges. So, I was able to speak to that experience and say, "Hey, I have all of this experience doing a lot of work where you have to coordinate with a lot of different organizations." Aleina Wachtel: Then another one that I like to talk about is research. People don't think, "Well, I can't speak about my research if I'm looking for an industry position." But here's the thing, you can if you tell a good enough story. So, I told you I had two summers of math research under my belt. One of them was mathematical This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 8 of 18 neuroscience and one of them was mathematical psychology. So, there's a pattern here. So, I spoke to how I love working in interdisciplinary fields where I need to be able to understand a variety of different roles and concepts and work cross-functionally across many different types of teams. Rachel Jimenez: Which is exactly what a program manager does. Aleina Wachtel: Which is exactly what a program manager does. So it's all about thinking what are the things that I need to be able to do well in this role and how can I speak to that, even if I don't have the exact role under my belt, and it worked. Rachel Jimenez: Obviously. Aleina Wachtel: That was enough. That was before the final round, right? That was in the first round. They were like, "Why do you want to be a PM and what makes you think you'll be a good PM?" Right? Rachel Jimenez: Right. Aleina Wachtel: I've only ever done research and clinic, so I kind of had done some industryesque work as a student, but being able to say I can work across different groups and have an understanding of interdisciplinary environment, cross-functional teams, et cetera, that's the thing that you want to be able to do. So, I always recommend students get good at telling stories for any type of experience they have, whether it's internship, research, club, et cetera. Rachel Jimenez: You mentioned a couple of experiences that you've had. So you had that internship at EA and then you were ... Was it a club that you were a volunteer of? Is it the [Panis 00:19:21]? Aleina Wachtel: Yeah. No, so SACNAS is- Rachel Jimenez: SACNAS. Aleina Wachtel: ... we had a Claremont College's chapter of an organization that's across the whole country, but yeah, that was something that ... I also was in a cappella, in competitive a cappella for five years, and that's one little fun tidbit that I put at the bottom of my résumé, but it's not something that I can really speak to for relevant experience. This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 9 of 18 Rachel Jimenez: So besides those things listed and some of the research that you did in college, were there other things that you leveraged to help tell your story of what you could do or is that pretty much the experiences that you had that you would think helped you get your job at Microsoft? Aleina Wachtel: There was really only one other, so again, there was the internship at EA, the two summers of research, and the fourth thing that I used was my experience being a team lead for my clinic project. So, for those who aren't familiar, clinic is the capstone experience that you can choose to do at Harvey Mudd, where instead of writing a thesis, which I already knew I didn't want to do because it's really similar to just doing research again, you are working for a company with about four or five other students to solve a problem. So, it's like getting an internship but you're getting school credit instead. Aleina Wachtel: So, what I was lucky enough, I was on engineering clinic, but this team had students that were CS majors, math CS majors, math majors, and engineering majors. So you've got kind of, again, crossfunctional team. I was the lead of this team for the first semester, and we were asked to optimize the manufacturing processes of Pharmavite, the vitamin company. So we would have liaisons from Pharmavite come to us, we had teleconferences. I was the one who had to do a lot of project management role here, where that is subtly different than program management because the way that I like to explain the difference, program managers are kind of having more of a vision and a driver's seat of what we're going to do and why we're doing it, whereas project managers excel at the how and the execution, and kind of breaking down the different steps that we're going to do to make it successful. But you absolutely need project management capabilities to be successful as a program manager. So, I was able to use my experience leading this team of several other students and also answer a lot of things that are behavioral questions. Aleina Wachtel: So, in an interview you're going to get something like tell me about a time that you overcame an obstacle or had to deal with conflict or something like that. I remember one of the things that I answered was we were first essentially acting as consultants in that semester that I was a lead, and we were looking for an existing software tool that would serve the list of like 18 requirements that the company had. So, with all of that in mind we were looking at a lot of different tools and we found the dream tool, and I'm telling you, it had all 18 plus the wish list items for this company, but the problem was it was like 10 times outside of their budget, I mean, really expensive. Aleina Wachtel: So, most of my team was like, "I don't know if we want to waste our time going and talking to this company because it's so expensive." But as the lead I was able to say, "You know what? It never hurts to ask. We should just take the meeting, see what we can do." And so we take the meeting and they got really excited because we were all Harvey Mudd students and they had kind of heard about the clinic program. So, almost on the fly I was able to say, "Oh, so are you looking to do more partnerships with students in universities?" And they said, "Absolutely. We're doing something with Cornell right now." And I said, "Cool. Well, maybe are you able to give us a discounted version of this tool under the promise that you'd be able to be a future clinic partner for the company?" And they said, "Absolutely." And so, while that ended up not manifesting because really true to life in industry, the after winter This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 10 of 18 break Pharmavite said, "Oh actually, we need you to build the tool ourselves, we don't have really a lot of funds to be able to invest in the tool that you picked for us." Aleina Wachtel: And we completely changed gears and did a totally different project, which was a great experience and something else that I could speak to of like when something didn't go according to plan, but at least leading into winter break that experience was incredible because I was like wow, we're able to leverage and talk about other future partnerships, and I convinced the team to do something that maybe they were not as excited to do, maybe a little hesitant to do, and that was influence without necessarily a lot of authority, and being able to speak to experiences that you've had that, again, demonstrate the skillset of the job that you're applying for. Rachel Jimenez: Right. Megan Elledge: Are you inspired by these stories and the amazing work our alumni are doing in the world? If so, consider giving to CGU to support future generations through student fellowships. Simply go to CGU.edu/give to make your donation today. Rachel Jimenez: Perfect. So, switching gears a little bit. Do you think your parents inspired your career in any way? Aleina Wachtel: I would say that they've inspired so much in my life that of course it trickles into my career. They didn't have the same educational opportunities that I have been so fortunate to have, and so they always instilled the importance of education. So, it's because of them, because of the drive they gave me and the passion that they gave me that I was able to be as successful as I have been because they always told be how important it was to do well in school, and because of that I was able to then go to a place like Harvey Mudd, and then CGU, and eventually build the skillset to even be surrounded by people who could tell me about this role. Because I think about if I had gone somewhere else, you never know, right? It's the what if, but if I had gone to a different set of schools maybe I would've still become a university professor, I never would've learned about program management or thought that I would be able to be in tech because, again, I never had any computer science background until I went to Harvey Mudd. I'd never really heard of computer science because they didn't have CS classes in my high school. Aleina Wachtel: It's because of incredible teachers, and mentors like Maria Klawe and many of the professors that I had at both Mudd and CGU that told me about all the things that you can do with a math background, because here's the thing. I cannot tell you how many times I've been on an airplane and I'm sitting down, and I was a student at the time, and you'd strike up a conversation, they'd see that you were a student. They'd ask you what you're studying and I say, "Oh, I'm a math major." And two things always happen. Number one, "Ugh, oh my god, I was so bad at math growing up." That's the first thing that everybody says. Then the second thing is, "So, do you want to be a teacher?" Or sometimes, "So, you're going to be an engineer?" And not like computer science engineer, but like mechanical civil kind of This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 11 of 18 engineer. That is to the average person the two career paths, other than maybe being like an actuary or something, that you can become if you have a math background. Aleina Wachtel: So, that gets ingrained to you when you're growing up as a student. You can be a teacher or you can be an engineer, maybe you can be an actuary or an accountant, but that's it. That's what you can do with math, and maybe at other places that would've been even more reinforced, but I felt that with my education at both Mudd and CGU that I had enough role models, enough alumni, enough professors that knew oh, no, no, no, a math background is actually incredibly versatile. Rachel Jimenez: Absolutely. Aleina Wachtel: Because it teaches you about problem solving, and critical thinking, and also communication because you need to be able to explain things in writing very clearly in mathematical research. So it's not just about numbers, it's also about words and how you communicate, and that is one of the most important skillsets that anyone can build, regardless of your discipline and what career you go to, is being able to communicate effectively. So, I think that that's ultimately what allowed me to be able to have the job that I have today. Rachel Jimenez: So, what sparked your interest in studying math? Aleina Wachtel: I think it was just, it's a combination of innate ability I think, but also supportive environment to continue. So, I'm a big believer of the growth mindset. So, for those who are not as familiar, Carol Dweck at Stanford University coined this awesome concept of the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. In fact, she was the commencement speaker at my graduation at Harvey Mudd. Fixed mindset is the belief that you are born with certain talents and capabilities and that's exactly what you're good at, and the things that you're not good at you're bad at, and that's just the way it is. I would say that it's not completely false in the sense that obviously we all have things that we are kind of better at than others, but to say that therefore you can only do those things is pretty limiting. Aleina Wachtel: The growth mindset is the idea that with enough hard work and enough investment in time you can actually improve, and there's a delta of whatever your baseline was to be good at that thing. So, the reason I bring it up is yes, I was good at math in middle school, but if I didn't have teachers and later on professors, especially most of the time they were male, who didn't support me and make it seem like I was good at this thing and that I was going to be successful in it, who is to say that I would've continued. Aleina Wachtel: That's also the same with my parents. Growing up there was never a doubt that I was good at math and science, and there was never like that's a boy's thing or that's a thing that you can't do. One of my dad's favorite stories to tell, which always embarrasses me a little bit, but I think it's a great thing to bring up This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 12 of 18 here, is he went back to get his associate's degree in his late 40s, and at the time I was 12 years old and I was taking algebra with one of my favorite teachers to this day who I still talk to, my seventh grade algebra teacher, Mr. Graham. He's now since retired, but we still keep in contact, which is awesome. My dad needed to take a placement test to be able to get into college algebra for him to be able to continue with the nursing program that he was doing at the time. So, he asked me to tutor him in math. So what I did is I took my homework assignments from Mr. Graham's class, extra copies, and I would teach him the things that I was learning. Over time, I was able to give him enough that he was able to pass that placement exam on the first try and he jumped right to college algebra. That's the kind of male role model that I had, where my father- Rachel Jimenez: No ego, right. Yeah. Aleina Wachtel: Exactly. He was like, "My daughter is awesome at math and I'm going to ask her to help me do this placement exam." Rachel Jimenez: Right. Aleina Wachtel: And to be that supported so early on, now that I've become very passionate about bringing underrepresented groups into STEM, is not the norm. I realized that so many people and so many girls, and so many especially Hispanic girls, are not being told that this is something that they have a potential career in, and to have that happen was this incredibly formative experience for me, and it's something that I look back really fondly. I love my dad so much and he was so great about making sure that anything that I was good at, I could excel and continue to do. Rachel Jimenez: Right. So, why did you choose to attend CGU? Was it just because of the four plus one program? Aleina Wachtel: I would say that's mostly the reason, but I also didn't just apply without talking to the professors. So, Professor Percus actually was the person that I met with when I was a junior at Harvey Mudd because I was interested in potentially doing this program. I'll be super candid here, the reason that I was looking to do a master's is because I struggled a lot at Harvey Mudd. I went from going to high school for two years and then community college for two years with a perfect 4.0 and an associate's degrees by 17 to failing my classes at Harvey Mudd and having to retake classes, and be on academic probation pretty much six or seven semesters out of eight. Rachel Jimenez: Wow. Aleina Wachtel: This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 13 of 18 So, Harvey Mudd is incredibly intense, and I knew that I probably wasn't going to get into a PhD program because of my GPA. Rachel Jimenez: Okay. Aleina Wachtel: So I knew that I needed to get a master's, and CGU was this awesome program that was in the area that I already was familiar with, had professors that I could meet with ahead of time, and there was also the benefit of it only taking one year, and therefore reducing the cost. So, when I met with him he was so encouraging and gave me a lot of insight into what the program was like, and he ended up being one of my teachers that I actually had in the program. Aleina Wachtel: To this day he's someone that I still reach out to whenever I come back to the Claremont Colleges to recruit because I know that Harvey Mudd is often targeted by tech companies because it is a STEM school, but I try to extend the invitation to CGU students as well through Percus, or Allon, and he will then send the email out to the distribution list on email for all the math majors and stuff, and have them come to my events, and they have come to my events. So, I think that was a great demonstration of how great the professors are at CGU and how they're really invested in not just building in your success when you're still a student but also after. Since I've graduated, they still keep in contact, and Prof Peng is another one. Rachel Jimenez: Right. Aleina Wachtel: He was a great professor of mine. So, I'm very grateful for that experience. Rachel Jimenez: Perfect. Well, thank you, and thank you for continuing to send those invites to our students. We appreciate that. Aleina Wachtel: Yeah, of course. Of course. Rachel Jimenez: So, what advice ... You've already given a lot of advice, but is there any additional advice you would give to someone that is interested in following in your footsteps, perhaps working at Microsoft? Aleina Wachtel: Absolutely. So, one of the pieces of advice that I was lucky enough to get from actually a pretty senior female PM at Microsoft happened within my I want to say first six months at the company. So, I had wanted to go to Grace Hopper and I had gone to her, she was my boss's boss at the time, Heather This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 14 of 18 Pfluger, she's amazing, and unfortunately all the spots were taken at that time, because I had started right after registration. But since I had gone to her saying I really want to go to this conference she actually saw that there was this great conference called Women In Product, which by the way, anyone listening, I highly recommend. It's this incredible conference for female PMs, both product managers, program managers, et cetera. Aleina Wachtel: She invited me to go with her. She was like, "Hey, I couldn't get you into Grace Hopper, but why don't you come with me to Women In Product?" And it was at this conference after all of the workshops and talks, we went out to dinner. Again, I'd been at the company for like maybe three months or something, and she asked me, "So, long-term, what do you want to do?" And I looked at her and I thought I was being all brave and I said something along the lines of, "Oh, well, I'd love to have your job some day." And she looked at me and she said, "Ugh, you're thinking way too small, girl. Way too small." Rachel Jimenez: What was her title at that time or what was her role? Aleina Wachtel: Well, at the time she was a principal program manager, but now she's an organizational leader and she is even more senior, which is awesome. But she looked at me and she said, "If you're aiming for that, that's way too low." Because in my head I was thinking, "I have to think of something realistic. I have to have this big North Star that's like something that I could actually do." But she was able to tell me to reframe your long-term career goals as the somewhat unobtainable or the very big North Star, because if you set limits to only go to the moon, you're only going to get to the moon, but if you can go for super far out in the universe, who knows how far you'll go. Maybe you'll make it, maybe you won't, but if you set the limits on yourself to something that's a realistic goal, that is so fundamentally holding yourself back. Aleina Wachtel: I realized I had a pattern of doing this, because when I was in high school I almost didn't apply to Harvey Mudd. I was like, "Oh my goodness. I don't know if a place like that is going to take me." I didn't have the best SAT score. I had like multivariable calculus and a college degree at 17, but I didn't have a great SAT score because I didn't have family members who had done the SATs, and I didn't have a tutor, and I only took it once, and I didn't really study for it. I didn't know what you were supposed to do to do well at the SAT. Rachel Jimenez: Right, you didn't know all the hacks, yeah. Aleina Wachtel: I didn't know all the hacks, and that's essentially what anybody who's coming in as a first gen for anything really knows. It's like you don't have the hacks. Someone along the way was like, "You got to apply. You're kick ass. Do it." And so I applied, and oh my god, I got in. Then when I was at Harvey Mudd I was like, "Oh man, I don't know if I could work at a place like Microsoft. I mean, that's one of the best tech companies in the world." And then along the way someone's like, "What are you doing? Just apply. This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 15 of 18 What's the worst that could happen?" And now I work in Microsoft, right? So you have to make sure that you're not just setting these limits for yourself. It's because of her that now I have the goal of one day being an organizational leader. I'm going to try to be an executive. You know what, why not? Rachel Jimenez: Love it. Aleina Wachtel: Because I have so much that has been taught to me through my mentors and sponsors, and one of my biggest goals is if I could reach that level of influence and authority in an organization like Microsoft, I could pass on all the things that I've learned to so many other people at a much more multiplier level, right? So that's I think why I have this new career goal of eventually going the managerial route and working up to being a leader because before I was limiting myself to being maybe mid management, but why not go for the top? Rachel Jimenez: Go all the way, love it. I love that advice, and I really appreciate the conversation we had earlier about negotiating, so I think those together are so powerful, so I appreciate that. Aleina Wachtel: Absolutely. Rachel Jimenez: We just have a few more minutes. Are you ready for some on the spot questions? Aleina Wachtel: Sure. Rachel Jimenez: Okay. So first question is, what has been your biggest career mistake? Aleina Wachtel: Oh man. I will say that when you are early in career, especially I think in the PM discipline since there isn't a major or like a handbook for it, you kind of just learn on the fly, one of the things that you might accidentally do is absorb the habits of the people that you work with who are more senior than you. I did that a little bit, but I was lucky enough to have some folks who kind of pulled me away from it, because the idea is just because someone's more senior or experienced than you doesn't mean that they're doing their job better than you. That's one of the things that I've had to learn, is when you go through your career you have to figure out as you work with people that are more senior than you that you're shadowing often, what are the things that you want to bring into your toolbox and what are the things that you don't want to do? Rachel Jimenez: Right. This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 16 of 18 Aleina Wachtel: And this isn't to say that people around you are just bad at their jobs. No, no, no. What I'm trying to say is sometimes everybody has a different working style and you have to figure out what your own style is. So you want to figure out oh my gosh, I really admire this person and I want to kind of take that part of the way that they work and bring that into the way that I want to do my work. Then maybe there's someone who's a totally different style, maybe you're not going to do something that's similar because that's just not something that works for you, and kind of in your early career and mid career, and as you progress, there's always someone who is more senior than you, right? Rachel Jimenez: Right. Aleina Wachtel: Kind of figuring out the things that you want to copy and the things that you actively aren't going to copy is kind of one of the things that I maybe fell into the pitfalls for ... I was just copying everything. These people know what they're doing, I'm just going to do it [crosstalk 00:38:10]. Now that I'm more senior, I'm a PM II now, I've been at the company for a handful of years now, and I'm still learning this obviously, but kind of figuring out what's going to go into my toolkit versus not. Rachel Jimenez: Right, perfect. Love that. What's your favorite memory from attending CGU? Aleina Wachtel: Oh man. I'm going to go real vulnerable here. So, I had a really rough last semester, and I remember I was in Prof Percus's office and I was crying. I was like, "I need help." Or maybe this was when I was still a student at Mudd, and it was overlapping because I was still taking classes at CGU, but it's all a blur because now it's been a few years since I graduated. Rachel Jimenez: Right. Aleina Wachtel: But one of my favorite memories was just like how supportive he was, because I was so overwhelmed with the workload, and I was far away from family, and there was kind of some stuff going on with my family at the time. He just gave me grace, and I really, really appreciated being given the flexibility to maybe have a little bit more time on that project, or have some more time to do office hours. Again, everybody that's listening, please go to office hours. They are cheat codes, they are hacks, they are amazing, because when you're in high school you're like, "Oh man, going to a tutor or office hours that's because I'm the dumb one who doesn't understand." But once you go to college or graduate school, no, no, no, it's like the best students who go to office hours. Rachel Jimenez: Exactly. Aleina Wachtel: This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 17 of 18 They're the ones who are actually taking the time to come meet with the professors and get everything that they need. Rachel Jimenez: And they can take you as an example, those are the people that get the really good jobs. Aleina Wachtel: Yeah. Rachel Jimenez: What's the worst career advice you've ever received? Aleina Wachtel: I would say that it wasn't exactly verbal advice, but it was kind of, again, a style choice that I've learned from not to do. Rachel Jimenez: Okay. Aleina Wachtel: So, I once had someone talk about, after they left a project. So, they left and they kind of laughed and they're like, "Look at everybody, they're all floundering, and the ship's on fire. Look how much they needed me." Then I had someone later on tell me oh, no, no, no, no, no, the best leaders are the ones who can peace out and just leave, and then they come back and it's operating incredibly well because you didn't bottleneck things, you didn't hold things in your head that other people needed, so when you leave you kind of just left everybody at a loss. No, you come back and they're kicking butt, that means you enabled your team to be successful with or without you. This is something that I think a lot of folks can be really scared of, because they don't want to be replaceable. Aleina Wachtel: They want to feel that they are absolutely fundamentally needed and that they have information that nobody else has, and so therefore I am always going to be around and I'm so needed, but that's dangerous because ultimately I think we're moving, especially in the tech industry, across all companies to a more collaborative model, less competitive. Try not to bottleneck things, try not to withhold information, and being better about documenting and sharing everything that you know with the rest of your team is ultimately going to make you even more irreplaceable, because you are a team player and you're not someone who is holding information back. So, that's something that I had to also learn. Rachel Jimenez: Right, love that. Who is your favorite CGU faculty member? Aleina Wachtel: I mean, I feel like I've mentioned him multiple times, but Prof Percus, but also Prof Peng is really, really great. I just haven't had as much contact with him after graduating, but they're both awesome. This transcript was exported on Apr 02, 2021 - view latest version here. S1E0420Two20Simple20Questions20to20Negotiate20a2... (Completed 03/25/21) Transcript by Rev.com Page 18 of 18 Rachel Jimenez: Okay, perfect. Thank you. Then last but definitely not least, and you may have mentioned this a little bit but you can go a little bit more in depth into it, what's your wildest career aspiration or dream? Aleina Wachtel: Oh yeah, I definitely had a spoiler there earlier, but I think just to become an executive and to be able to ... I think it's one of those answers that a lot of people might have or people might hear it and say, "Oh well, that's kind of presumptions of them." And that you have to be very nuanced, I think for me at least, in expressing why. So, am I the kind of the person who is driven and wants to have this big goal? Absolutely, right? And I think those of us who can identify with maybe a type A personality, we like being in control, and we like being able to have authority and have influence, and I think it's one of the markers that people often associate with success. But what I've come to realize through my time in Microsoft, and I will continue to work on and learn, is the best leaders are not the ones who tell people what to do, it's the ones who listen, and it's the ones who fundamentally want to understand, I don't want to say what their constituents need, but kind of the constituents, or their directs, or their organization, or whoever you're leading, and it's about kind of, again, that growth mindset, thinking about the things that you want to improve on and constantly iterate on. Aleina Wachtel: I feel like I've learned a lot of these kinds of principles early on in my career, that then I think will make me a really effective leader later on because I have that empathy, and I have gone through a loss and had managers who have been incredibly supportive, and I have gone through academic hardship and had professors that were incredibly lenient or grace giving. So, for me that's the kind of leader that I want to be, is one with kind of open arms, very authentic. I'm a very open person, I'm very happy to share my stories. I'm kind of an open book, and I want us to have more leaders like that, especially women, especially Latinas, especially like you, right? In the industry, and I want to be one of those people so that I can then go to Grace Hopper, or to Women In Product, or to all these conferences, to come back and do podcasts like this, to go to middle schools, and high schools, and volunteer with organizations like TECHNOLOchicas or whatever, right? And to inspire the next generation of our technologists. Rachel Jimenez: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it, and I think this will be a very valuable podcast for our listeners. Aleina Wachtel: Thank you so much, it was my pleasure. Megan Elledge: If you enjoyed this episode and want to support this podcast, here are three easy steps. One, subscribe to the podcast. Two, leave us a review on iTunes. Three, know someone who could benefit from this podcast? The greatest compliment you can give us is sharing this with others. From Studio B3 at Claremont Graduate University. Thank you for listening. We look forward to seeing you back here on How Did You Get That Job?