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Adaptability is your superpower. Keeping on top of changing trends, technologies, and reads is what makes a marketable voice actor. Co-Founder and CEO of SOVAS, Rudy Gaskins joins us this week to discuss how being adaptable will keep us working during the rise of AI voices. Join Anne and Rudy four our next installment of the voice and AI series where we discuss how to stay relevant, why now is the time to get in the AI game, and how the future of voiceover, both union and non-union may be impacted by this disruptive technology. Guest Bio Rudy is the Co-founder, Chairman & CEO of the Society of Voice Arts and Sciences™ (SOVAS™), an international nonprofit corporation that oversees That’s Voiceover!™ Career Expo, the Voice Arts® Awards, and multiple programs providing training, education, academic/financial aid scholarships and career counseling for voice actors. Rudy has also worked on Union sound editing and music production. Transcript >> It’s time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry’s top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let’s welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast, the AI and Voice series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today it is my pleasure to have special guest Rudy Gaskins, the co-founder, chairman and CEO of the Society of Voice Arts and Sciences, otherwise known as SOVAS, an international nonprofit corporation that oversees the That's Voiceover career expo and the Voice Arts Awards and multiple programs that provide training, education, and financial aid to voice actors. So in addition to this, Rudy was also a union sound editor for Spike Lee's "Do the Right Thing," and a music editor for Brian Depalma's "The Untouchables," and last, but certainly not least, and I don't want to make him angry, he holds a second degree black belt in taekwondo. Thank you so much for joining me, Rudy, and welcome to the show. Rudy: It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me, Anne. Anne: Well, I am very excited to talk to you today about this topic, which seems to be on everybody's minds, and that is of AI and the voiceover industry. And you had sent out an email to your subscribers the other day -- I was one of those and I received it -- entitled "Adaptability is Your Superpower." And in that email, you asked us to take a look at the impact that artificial intelligence is having on the world of the voice arts. And I really liked that you had this quote in the beginning from the French philosopher, that the sad thing about artificial intelligence is that it lacks artifice and therefore intelligence, which I think is a really great way to lead off that conversation because it is a very sensitive topic for most of us. Talk to me a little bit about how you feel about AI voices and their impact on the voiceover world today. Rudy: Well, I guess the first thing I would say is that there are, there are many uses for AI voices that are critical to life and death situations. And so it's important not to look at artificial intelligence and automatically assume bad things, automatically paint a picture of doom and gloom. For voice actors, it's very different because we're literally talking about our livelihoods and I'm not a voice actor, but I, I speak on behalf of voice actors as, as the chairman of SOVAS, and SOVAS, our very existence is only because of voice actors. So we do have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but there is a lot of emotion that services -- when you're talking about taking away people's livelihoods. But what's missing beyond the emotion is really understanding how AI is finding its way into the zeitgeist of communication and seeing more clearly why producers are using AI and for what reasons they're using it. And I think when you start to look more carefully at the why, you begin to understand it better, and it lessens the anxiety in terms of whether you in particular are at risk, given the kind of voice work you may be doing. Anne: Do you think all types of voice work are going to be effected ultimately or what particular genres? Rudy: I think ultimately they will all be affected to some degree, and some, the AI aspect may fall away because it's not as effective, and others, it may become more of a hybrid where, hey, we need to do it this way in order to manage money, manage time, and well, those two things alone is enough. But I think all of it will be tested. Anne: Mmm, yes. I, I think it's important that you said in the very beginning that you think that some of it will fall away. And I think yes, due to people using it and seeing if it's acceptable or they like it, or they don't like it, and they tweak -- and I think that that's something that as voice actors may feel that their livelihoods are being impacted so greatly with this, it's fear, based on fear. But I think we do need to really understand that I think there's going to be a testing period where people see if these voices will work for their need. And that's an important thing that we tend to forget, and we tend to get very up in arms, and basically just out of fear, just make a blanket statement saying that we never want to affiliate ourselves with an AI voice ever again. Rudy: Right, just say no! Anne: Just say no! And somehow we might get labeled, if we, if we look at AI voices, as if we are contributing to the demise of the industry. Your thoughts on that. Rudy: Yeah. That's, I think it's just the opposite. If we put our heads in the sand and hope it goes away, we're just going to find ourselves out of work. And, you know, AI is here. It's not a thing that's coming. It's not a thing that anyone is testing to see if it will work. It does work, you know, on many different levels. And so it is here. And the smart thing to do is to examine it, and see how it works, and see where it works best, and why people are choosing it, whether it be money or, or just creating more efficient processes for getting the work done. And so that you can then know how you can fit into that. And you've got to test it for yourself. You've got to play with it, and learn about it, and hear from the people who are on the development side. And because there are lots of jobs now that are in the AI space, and kids are coming out of college with a focus on artificial intelligence. So it's not going anywhere. Learn about it, and your chances of thriving as a voice actor are going to be better. Anne: I think also you have something in your newsletter that talked about that your voice is your own personal signature that ultimately no amount of programming can really replace. And I think that that's also important for us to remember that I believe that there is a place for AI voices, but perhaps not in places in voice acting that require maybe long format or a lot of the acting. A lot of times people will refer to it, what level of acting is AI going to replace? What are your thoughts on that? Rudy: Well, one AI is starting with actual voices. So the best AI that you're going to hear is going to be sourced from a real person who is making every attempt that they can conceive of to bring emotion and nuance to what they record. And then the technology is looking very carefully, and it's getting smarter every day, to make sure that it can replicate emotions and nuance. It's not going to ever be, I don't believe, as sophisticated as, as a human being because we can react in a millisecond to something that's emotional, whereas that has to all be programmed into AI. So I believe acting will remain key, whether you're recording your voice to put it into a bank, or whether you're the developer who's trying to manipulate the voices so that they have more resonance with human sensibilities, acting is going to be key. And perhaps those who are not studying acting, but are strictly focused on voice acting would do well to expand their skills on the acting side of things. Because as even with AI coming into prominence on some level, when you compare one voice to the next, there's going to be a judgment about whether it's better or worse. And if your performance is better, then you're going to win the day. Anne: Yeah, if your performance is better for the particular application. Rudy: Yes. Anne: So do you think that every voice actor should create an AI voice? Rudy: I think it's going to happen. You know, I, at this point, I'm not endorsing how people should actually use the information as much as saying, get the information, know what it's about, understand it, and then make the smartest choice for you. And, you know, sometimes we create technologies because we can without thinking about whether we should. Not every technology that gets created is a positive disruption. If something causes a loss of massive jobs in the country, and the upside is that, you know, two people get rich, obviously that's a bad choice. On the other hand, some technologies create more jobs and open up new evidence. And the number of people who are doing voice acting in the niche areas where AI may have an impact is probably not going to change the unemployment rate in the United States. Knowing that you can be swept away like that is part of what's very agonizing. It would create a lot of fear, but knowing how it works and where to use it and how to use it is going to enable you to be able to be a part of the growth as opposed to a casualty. Anne: Yeah. Well, I've been thinking, you know, as of late, after I've been doing a lot of research on the topic, because I've been doing a lot of podcasts on it, that AI, I think, is wonderful for a lot of things. And I think it's kind of just feeling out this voice acting replacement kind of deal where, you know, it's going to be what I think the consumer of the media is going to accept. It's kind of like, you know, video production and, and music when it went digital, and then video production went, oh, we can shoot movies on our phones. And so I think this is kind of feeling its way. And I think that the technology is only as good as the humans that are developing it. And I, I'm hoping that, you know, ultimately it will find its place where we can all survive in this industry and, and have a piece of it and it actually generates more work for us. However -- Rudy: Yeah, that would be great. Anne: -- I know that it's -- yeah. I like to believe in that. And I, I like to think that it's going to evolve that way, because, you know, with these, with certain cases that have been prevalent in the news recently, the TikTok case with Bev Standing, and then also the Anthony Bourdain movie, where they used a few lines of, of AI -- what are your thoughts about how voice talent can protect their voices? I think that these cases might be able to help enact laws that might protect our voices. But what are your thoughts? Rudy: I'm, I'm already hearing the producers, who are really pushing AI, in many cases are already talking about how they're going to pay the actors, and ensure that when they, when they add lines, for example, and the actor is not there, and they're just using the voice to fix the script or to generate an entirely new script, that the actor will get paid as if they showed up and did the job. If they make fixes, the actor gets paid, as if they showed up and did the fix. That's, that's where the battle is on, on the economic front. It will still be a matter of hiring talent to do the original source material. And then it's just, how do we keep track of that and make sure that people are getting paid -- Anne: Right. Rudy: -- and that the buyers are being straight with everybody. But I think that fight is going to be on the economic front. You know, when you, you talk about the acting side of it again, I mean, in my heart, I believe that there are inalienable traits of being human that really do sustain us through, through oral communication. And those things are, they're not, I don't believe they're trackable or traceable in such a way that you can kind of write an algorithm about it. You can mimic it, but when it comes to how we communicate with each other -- and a lot of it is also already lost in, in video games and things in terms of body language and things that happen that are part of communication that only happened when it's an actual person. And we feel these things, these things happen in microseconds all the time. So even for animals, you know, the, you know, not that we aren't animals, but even with, you know, other kinds of animals, they make sounds, and that's part of how they communicate with each other. And if you were to record those things and try to create something that would communicate animal to animal, I'm not sure how effective that would be. Anne: Hmm, interesting. Now also you're a director, Rudy. Rudy: Yes. Anne: So what, you know, I'm thinking how directable -- I mean, thoughts on being able to direct an AI voice? That's a little bit difficult right now. And I don't know, I don't know if you've heard anything, if it's going to be as possible as you think. I know that you can tweak some AI voices in terms of pitch and pacing and possible emotion, but I'm not quite sure. There's so many nuances of the human emotion. What are your thoughts about that? Rudy: Yeah, well, here's -- the scary, the scary news is that as much as we recognize the quality of great acting and the nuance of communication, the consumer is not that concerned. That's where we lose, that people are, are happy with good enough. And we see that everywhere. I mean, there was a time when I thought I will never watch a movie on a seven-inch screen, but then I was thrilled that I could find one in the back of my seat on an airplane because it gave me something to do. Anne: Right, right. Rudy: And people use their phones to watch movies all the time. But once upon a time we thought that'll never work. That's crazy to even consider. But it's a matter of convenience. I work -- I'm working now with the audio description, which is narration for blind people, to be able to understand what's being seen on the screen. And many of them would rather have an electronic synthesized voice that was not created from a source than to have nothing. Anne: Right, right. Good point. And that's kind of the scary point, right? Rudy: Yeah. Anne: It's what, it's what the consumer is going to say is, well, it's okay. It's good enough. And I think that's almost impossible for us to really -- I mean, I wish I could see into the future -- but I, I have a feeling over time, especially with, you know, voice technologies like Alexa, and hopefully you don't have one there that I just [laughs] that I just woke up. Or the voice technologies, I mean, children are using them on a day-to-day, and I think that it all starts with your ear and what your ear is used to and what, just what you get used to as being the norm. Rudy: That's right. Anne: I think that as the years go on with people using -- I know that I've been using my voice technology more and more, and as long as I know that it's a voice and it's a synthesized voice, I'm okay with it. I think if the quality gets to be too human-like and I might, and I have like, just a, a note that isn't human-like I might be like, hmm, I don't know if I trust that anymore. And I think that might have a lot to do with using AI voices in commercial spots where trust has a lot to do with things in terms of selling. Rudy: Yeah, I think commercials is one of the places where it will be a difficult road for AI. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Or maybe long format like narration, I'm thinking, that might require some acting and some human engagement. Rudy: Mm-hmm. But there, again, it becomes a matter of how much quality do you -- is really required. Anne: Right. Rudy: Again, for audio description, like I said, there are synthesized voices that are completely manufactured without starting from a human source. And that can be fine for certain things, you know, reading something that's on a screen, for example, when you have nothing else at your disposal, then you're thrilled to have at least that. And so that will always be pushing back against, you know, having a human voice, you know, replete with all the nuances. The, I think the other issue is speed with which you can get information to people. Anne: Yeah. Rudy: And it takes time to record human beings in a booth. And there are lots of cases where we need the information more than we need the nuance. And we'll take advantage of that. The young folks growing up, they're actually learning to decipher these types of voices. It's not, it's not, it's not something new for them. It's what they're born into. Anne: Right, right. Rudy: So they're, they're already learning to decipher and figure out what nuances between the lines. So at some point there won't be much of an argument in terms of, you know, great acting, makes all the difference. There's going to be some sort of common ground there, some sort of middle ground. Anne: So where do you see the industry in five to ten years? Right now, it's like, hmm, I can, I totally understand. And of course, as the younger generation comes up, are they going to be even caring about the nuances really? Where do you see industry in five to ten years? Rudy: Well, I do, I do think what we're calling the nuances will still be a factor in five years. I won't go to ten because I think the shakeup in the, in the fall, that is going to happen in less than five. Anne: Oh, I agree with you there. Yeah. Rudy: And, and that there will be instances like, like you suggested earlier with commercials where the appeal is very specific to, to a demographic, and the story that you're telling and the memory that you hope to create is essential. Because, you know, with commercials, people aren't running out to buy your product right away. You have to create something that lives in their mind until they come around to it. So one day I'm walking through the grocery aisle, and I think, oh my God, I've been thinking about trying that product. Maybe I'll grab it now that I'm out of dishwashing liquid, I'll try this one, versus the promo, for example, where it's tonight at nine. Anne: Right, right. Rudy: Then you're either going to show up or you're not. So creating those kinds of memorable stories does require a kind of detailed nuance enacted and specifying -- Anne: That's what sells. Rudy: Yeah. Anne: Yeah. That has been a longstanding marketing 101 kind of piece of knowledge that, you know, selling by emotion really works. Rudy: Yeah, and advertisers love that part of the process. Anne: Yeah. Rudy: It's not a hindrance to the process. It's not a, it's not a waste of time. It's not taking up a kind of, kind of time that would interfere with the process at all. Anne: Right. That's very interesting. I find because I do a lot of corporate narration myself, which to me, with Fortune 500 comp -- or brands that really want to invest money in their message and using those tactics to sell, I figure corporate brands actually just have longer. It's a more, more of a soft sell for corporate narration. And so for me, I'm hoping that that work, where you have companies that want to have that human engagement and, and be able to touch on that story and to create that emotion, that they will still be requiring human voices. Although I did read or I have a lot of people that have said that e-learning, you know, corporate narration -- I think explainers might be probably quicker to go than corporate narration, which like I've always maintained, is more than a minute and less than maybe four or five minutes of a soft sell. Kind of like what I compare to be a Super Bowl commercial where there's more time to tell the story. So I'm hoping that that genre is going to still work with the human voice, as well as e-learning for those companies that really need to have that teacher behind the mic and have that engagement. Rudy: Absolutely. And you, you cite the brands and what they will choose to do. And that makes a big difference because you have brands like American Express and Lexus, and these brands are luxury brands -- Anne: Yup. Rudy: -- that care a lot about how they manage their messaging. And when, even when it comes to, you know, explainers, they do a lot of B2B communication -- Anne: Sure. Rudy: -- with their partners. And those folks who are working at those companies, who need to hear those messages are just like you and me sitting at home. We have to be inspired. You know, if you want me to get up and, and partner appropriately with our new company, that -- a new company that's now working with us, American Express, for example, does a credit card with Delta Airlines. So they have to communicate to Delta Airlines staff, what they're doing, and how to, how to sell this, and how to build that partnership. If you send them an electronic message, it may fall on deaf ears. So even though it's an explainer, and it's, and it's something that's on the Internet only, you're talking to real people who require being excited and inspired -- Anne: Yeah. Rudy: -- to take action. Anne: Mm-hmm. And if I remember correctly, I mean, Rudy, you've spent years doing branding for companies, if I'm correct. Rudy: Yes. Anne: Did you -- you've had a branding company for years. And so you've worked with companies that may want to have, like, that voice be part of the brand, maybe part of a, what I call a sonic brand. What are your thoughts about how AI and, and a human voice can work in regards to being a total voice for the brand? Rudy: Yeah, that comes, kind of comes back to that five-year shake-out. I think in the near future, the human voice rules when it comes to a sonic signature, because we've always had non-human sonic signatures that are either musical or sound effects. And so we know what those are and we deal with them accordingly. But when you have a human voice like Ving Rhames' Arby's commercials -- Anne: Yup. Rudy: -- "we have the meats," that stands out in a way that, you know, shook everything up. I mean, I even hear similar music being used on other fast food chains now with with an over-the-top voice because advertisers are known for glomming onto whatever is hugely successful. Anne: Sure. Rudy: So they're all following Arby's now and trying to create that sonic signature. Anne: I would imagine though, if they could make an AI voice out of him, that that might work for their maybe phone system, right? That's what I'm thinking maybe the human voice with an AI voice together would make all aspects of the company similarly branded. Rudy: Yeah. Anne: Yeah. Rudy: That's an excellent point. Anne: Yeah. Rudy: And since the voice is already out there, and we know it, even if the AI version is not quite it -- Anne: Right, it's close. Rudy: -- will fill in the blanks. Anne: Right, right. Interesting thought, interesting thought for voice talent, right, who are fearful that this is taking away their jobs, maybe this actually will offer an opportunity to become a voice for a company. Rudy: Yeah. Anne: And I think that that wouldn't be a bad thing to aim for. [laughs] As a voice actor. Rudy: Yeah, I think the worst case scenario is that we're using human voices to source this material. Nothing has changed in that sense, that you're still one of tens of thousands in a voice bank. And you want to be there when someone reaches out for a particular sound. And once you have that sound, you're going to be promoting it. You know, you're gonna be promoting your voice. Anne: That's a, that's a good point. I think that that's something I want to also reiterate for maybe voice talent who are, who are fearful, is that not everybody's going to have an AI voice created. I mean, there's still going to be a selection of voices to choose from. And if this is the wave of the future, if this is what is evolving, and you want to stay within the industry, it's a thought, you know, you could be a part of that pool. And I don't believe that the technology nor do I believe that the laws are going to be there in place for a company to just create a voice out of, let's say, media without licensing and without permission. I do believe that that's probably in the next five years where you're saying a lot of this is going to kind of shake out and get hopefully worked out. I think that those laws are going to be, you know, completely enacted and put in place, because there's going to be -- Rudy: I believe so. Anne: -- there's going to be a few incidents where it's going to be not licensed or not used without permission. And I think that just that's, everybody's going to just make it so. [laughs] There'll be a lawsuit. There'll be something that we'll just -- there will have to be laws enacted to prevent that from happening. And also from companies that are less than ethical. Rudy: Correct. Everything I've read coming from producers that are being interviewed and producing work in AI has included paying the actors fairly. And I think that that's a good sign, that conversation is part of what they're projecting in their, in their public relations and in their process. We have to push that. We have to keep that conversation alive and not let it become a maybe or maybe not kind of thing, but an obvious fair and equal choice. Anne: Yes, I agree. And I think that also voice talent need to really look closely with companies that they may be working with. If they're thinking about this, or if they happen to see an audition that comes around for a TTS, or if they're being asked to record, you know, lots of lines for what may seem like a good amount of money at the time. But I think that it's important that they all, that all voice actors that see that kind of opportunity really take time to look at it and make sure that it's valid. And even me, I'm at the point where if I see anything like that, and it, and it interests me, or if I might want to work with the company, I'm having a lawyer look up [laughs] or work with me to, like, look over any documentation to make sure that my voice is protected. Rudy: Yeah. That's, that's very smart. Woe to the voice actor who doesn't hire a lawyer to look at a contract first. Anne: Right, right? Especially now, I think especially now, I think it's really, really important when you're doing -- because that type of information is what is required to make an AI voice, a lot of information. And in regards to, you know, celebrity voiceovers, I don't think that that's going to happen too quickly unless they're getting paid. And I -- Rudy: Right. Anne: -- I'm hoping that the union is going to really start having a voice. So far as today, I've heard that they're looking into it. They've commented on a lot of things, but I haven't heard anything officially from the union about AI voices. Have you heard anything? Rudy: Well, no, just the same thing you're just suggesting. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Rudy: And, but, you know, the union has been weakened tremendously as result of non-union work. Anne: Yes. Rudy: Union actors, talented union actors who teach voiceover to newbies. And so those people become really good because they're getting trained by -- Anne: Sure. Rudy: -- really good people. And then they're out doing non-union work. So the union is, is kind of struggling -- Anne: Yeah. Rudy: -- because they have not updated their outlook and their way of communicating or connecting with actors. Anne: Yes. Rudy: And the union is only as strong as its membership. So that's a, a weakness right now. Anne: That's another podcast episode probably to talk about what could be done, because I think that they need to be involved. Rudy: Yeah. Anne: I'm hoping that they will be involved to help protect, help to protect. Rudy: Well, folks are definitely turning to the union now -- Anne: Yeah, yeah. Rudy: -- and asking these questions as a result of AI and hoping that they'll, they'll get something done. The union has tended to be more pro its regularly working talent. Anne: Sure, absolutely. Rudy: And a multitude of actors who are union, but not working regularly. Anne: You know, but also they're very connected obviously to actors, you know, on camera actors as well, where I think that some of this is they're going to be wanting, especially with the Anthony Bourdain kind of fiasco, that that happened. I think that they're going to be probably involved sooner than maybe they thought [laughs], so in terms of protecting their voice actors. So tell us, do you think, ultimately, since you are the CEO and founder of the SOVAS awards, Voice Arts Awards, you think that you'll have a, an award category for anything AI coming up soon? Rudy: We've had an award category for AI for three years. Anne: Wait, where've I been? Rudy: Artificial intelligence, as well as augmented reality. But the way, the way it works is the voices have been actual actors. So as you know, these are, these are voice actors who were submitted -- Anne: Oh, gotcha, right, right. For the, yeah, for the best, that's right. I do remember that category last year. Wow. So Rudy, it has been so enlightening talking to you today. I really appreciate your perspective and -- Rudy: Thank you, Anne. Anne: Yeah. BOSS listeners out there, I think that we just need to really educate ourselves, and you've been a great part of helping us to do that, Rudy. So I really appreciate that. How can people get in touch with you if they'd like to know more, know more about SOVAS, know more about Voice Arts? Rudy: Oh, sure. Well, go to our website for one. And that's very simple, SOVAS.org, and there, you will find our events, and you can find out about, learn about our mission. There're auditions that are available as part of That's Voiceover, which is coming up in November. And so there, there are three audition opportunities, and the first one will show up next week and the others will continue to roll out. That will be two scholarship opportunities. Anne: Awesome. Rudy: This year, That's Voiceover is giving away $20,000 in studio gear. Anne: Whoa. Rudy: So -- Anne: That's amazing. Rudy: Yeah. I still can't believe it, but between some of our sponsors, they put that together. Anne: That's fantastic. Rudy: Yeah. So all those who attend That's Voiceover -- Anne: Is that going to be in New York this year or LA? Rudy: That's Voiceover will be virtual. Anne: Ah, okay, good to know. Good to know. Rudy: We're very careful about that. Anne: Yeah. Rudy: And I'm glad we did hold onto that virtual position this year because COVID is still kicking around. Anne: I know. And I, yeah, there's, there's a couple of conferences that are going to be in person, and I'm not quite sure anymore because yeah. We're having a flare up over here. Rudy: Yeah. That's, that's what I've been hearing. Some folks are concerned about that now. Anne: Yeah, yeah, a little bit. Rudy: I would be. Anne: Absolutely. So SOVAS, That's Voiceover in the scholarships. Wow, fantastic. Rudy: Yeah. The scholarships and we're working on some new scholarships right now with Pandora. Anne: Oh fantastic. Rudy: We're going to keep adding stuff, you know, value that people can find here. I mean, we are a nonprofit organization. So a big part of our mission is to, to, to be charitable, and our sponsors understand that. And so we look to partner with them to find ways to, to help people to grow. And studio gear is a big one. Anne: Well, fantastic. Rudy: And training is a big one. Anne: Yep. It absolutely is. And I appreciate all of your efforts in the community, and I know our BOSS listeners do too. And so thank you so much again for joining me today. I'd like to give a big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL that allows me to connect with people such as Rudy. And thank you again, BOSSes, for listening. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Rudy: Bye-bye, all! >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to Coast connectivity via ipDTL. 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