Arts
Welcome to our first ever listener question episode! Thanks to Deb for this intriguing idea. 1:00 Tom Shippey, sources 1:20 Hi Deb! 1:37 Orc clans - warlike 1:50 Sauron and Morgoth found ways to unite them. 2:00 Nature of evil 2:30 People asked Tolkien this very question! Specifically Peter Hastings, the manager of the Newman Catholic Bookshop. 2:50 Naturally bad, but not irredeemably bad. 3:20 Who is Tom Shippey? 4:20 Orcs made by Morgoth 4:30 Evil can’t create, can only corrupt. 5:00 Morgoth made orcs in mockery of the elves and Eru. 5:15 It’s an example of subverting God’s will. 5:30 Orcs in other literature are generally derived from Tolkien (discussion of Bright). 7:10 Orcs and loyalty. See Tom Shippey’s Orcs, Wraiths, and Wights. Orcs show knowledge of good and evil. 7:38 “Regular Elvish Trick” 8:00 Elvish = bad, orcs are the opposite of elves. 8:20 Dan thought orcs would have opposite morals but they don’t. 8:40 Elves can be bad too, just look at Fëanor (or Eöl). 8:50 Orcs are the infantry of the old war against the Vala and the elves in the first age. 9:18 Morgoth put his power into his works, the evil dilutes. 9:40 Erica’s amazing hand gestures. 9:50 Morgoth’s diluted evil - this idea has spread to other fantasy. 10:14 The dilution of evil is also dilution of control, so Sauron has a harder time controlling them than Morgoth did. 10:20 Tolkien tossed around the idea of a hive mind, but never really settled on it. They misbehave. 10:40 Ocrs that were elves vs. orcs that were men? 11:00 Orcs vs. goblins - idea for future research for Erica! Or, if you know, please tell us where Erica can look it up! 11:20 Goblins/elves = Moria, Orcs/men = Mordor? (upon further consideration, Erica doesn’t think this part is terribly likely because both of those places are extremely far East considering when orcs came into being) 12:10 We solved everything! Wait… not in any way… 12:27 Melkor corrupted orcs and they serve him out of fear. 12:47 The alternative is unpleasant 13:00 Born, not manufactured like the goo chamber in Orthanc in the movies. 14:00 Initial group created in the first age and the rest descended from them. 14:20 Is the goo chamber in Orthanc corruption? (Erica needs to watch the special features again) 14:54 Could there be a good orc? Yes. Not irredeemable. 15:00 It’s important to Tolkien to have redemption as an option. 15:24 Catholic background - post-fall beings with free will 15:50 Nothing can be created without Eru Tokien’s letters p 195 - “by accepting or tolerating their making… orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good”. 16:28 Orcs know good and evil so they MUST be redeemable. 16:40 Only Eru could create things with independent thought 17:05 Eru wouldn’t sanction Melkor’s works like he did Aulë’s. 17:24 Corruption isn’t inheritable 17:50 Don’t know about socialization of orcs. 18:00 Children of a warlike, violent life. References: A lot of research went into this episode. Most of the information is from the following resources. Erica’s reference librarian brain is annoyed that these citations are not in a style or alphabetized, but she’s in a bit of a hurry today. The Silmarillion local library / local bookstore The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Selected and edited by Humphrey Carpenter, Houghten Mifflin Boston, 1981. Morgoth’s Ring, by Christopher Tolkien, Allen and Unwin UK, 1993. “Orcs, Wraiths, Wights: Tolkien's Images of Evil,” by Tom Shippey, in: JRR Tolkien and his Literary Resonances, ed by George Clark and Daniel Timmons, Greenwood Press, 2000 JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century by Tom Shippey, Harper Collins, 2000. All music is by the amazing Doctor Turtle! Feel free to show him some love over on Bandcamp.