Miscellaneous
CEO of Notable Growth, Rebecca Nackson, talks being the "marketing therapist" in the martech space. She brings us the 3 T's: Team, Tools and Tactics. You need to have all in place to create a best-in-class engagement solution. *Hosted by Dave Goldstein and PJ Bruno LIVE at LTR 2019* [0:00:17] P.J. Bruno: Hi again. Welcome back to Braze For Impact, your MarTech Industry discuss digest. I'm your host, P.J. Bruno. And with us today, CEO of Notable Growth and very good friend of ours, Rebecca Nackson. How are you, Rebecca? [0:00:31] Rebecca Nackson: I am doing just fine. [0:00:32] P.J. Bruno: Welcome. [0:00:33] Rebecca Nackson: Thanks for having me. [0:00:33] P.J. Bruno: Welcome, Rebecca. And also my confidant here, my friend and coworker, head of Global Solutions Alliances at Braze, Dave Goldstein. What's up buddy? [0:00:44] Dave Goldstein: How are you guys? [0:00:46] P.J. Bruno: We're doing great, aren't we? We're cozy. [0:00:48] Rebecca Nackson: It's just a shame that people can't see the shoes Dave is wearing. [0:00:52] P.J. Bruno: I wish you could. Imagine bedazzled. Right? [0:00:57] Dave Goldstein: Consequently, these are the shoes... Funny, we'll tie this back to marketing. [0:01:00] Rebecca Nackson: Okay. [0:01:00] Dave Goldstein: You ready? [0:01:01] Rebecca Nackson: Yes. [0:01:01] Dave Goldstein: These were the shoes that... I'm trying to remember which vendor I bought them from, but it was online. And they had a mobile app. And I went back and forth between the two. And I was browsing and I was favoriting some things in the mobile app. And I went back to the website and they were chasing me with ads. Right? Like showing me these shoes, and I was like, God, I love these shoes. I really got to buy them. I really got to buy them. And I converted. I bought them. And I'm wearing them here. I still think I get ads for these shoes. They're still popping up in the sidebars. It's unbelievable. [0:01:32] Rebecca Nackson: This went from being a triumph of great targeting to the perils. [0:01:35] P.J. Bruno: Yeah. [0:01:36] Dave Goldstein: I'm like- [0:01:36] P.J. Bruno: Broken. [0:01:37] Rebecca Nackson: Right? Broken experience. [0:01:38] Dave Goldstein: How much more money are you going to waste? [0:01:40] Rebecca Nackson: How many more pairs of this same shoe? [0:01:42] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. I love them. I bought them. Shout out to the Nike Air Jordans, by the way. [0:01:46] P.J. Bruno: He's wearing them. You guys can't see these things but they're glittered and there's a five inch heel. [0:01:52] Dave Goldstein: What am I, Kiss? [0:01:53] P.J. Bruno: Anyway, here we are hanging out. Rebecca Nackson, very good friend. We worked with her for a while now. Good friend of Braze. Was at Prolific originally. And we actually were just talking about, six months ago we were at MAU. And now here she is CEO of Notable Growth already starting super strong. Tell us about what happened in the last six months maybe. Let's wrap all up into ten minutes. [0:02:18] Rebecca Nackson: I saw a lot of great content and I just thought, I'm ready to do it myself. [0:02:22] P.J. Bruno: Let's go. [0:02:24] Rebecca Nackson: A combination of events outside and inside of my control. But a story I like to tell is, I signed up to go to an event a couple of years ago so that I could learn a lot more. I was feeling a little intimidated that other people in the space knew more about this than I did. So, I signed up to go to this event. And they then reach out to me to ask if I'll be on one of the panels. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. Here I am thinking like I wanted to... I can't tell if this just shows how little everybody else knows. But I think that every time I come to an event like this, it is a combination of those things where I'm always learning. It's one of the things that I love about being in this space. Like there's not a single not even just conference that I come to, even blog post that I read that I don't think, oh, that's something new. But then, there's also some cool reminders where I think, oh, maybe I do know a thing or two by now. [0:03:18] P.J. Bruno: Exactly. I mean, I love that approach though, always learning, right? [0:03:21] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:03:21] P.J. Bruno: Because nobody knows all of it. And everybody feels that imposter syndrome. [0:03:25] Rebecca Nackson: Yes. [0:03:25] P.J. Bruno: And it's honestly refreshing to have a CEO that can like own that, so. [0:03:29] Rebecca Nackson: Thank you. [0:03:29] Dave Goldstein: Isn't it amazing too, right? Like just the general community that's popped up in the last two, three years? [0:03:36] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:03:36] Dave Goldstein: It seems like there's so many people popping up who have done tremendous things and everybody is like forthcoming with information and sharing. [0:03:45] Rebecca Nackson: Yes. [0:03:45] Dave Goldstein: The community is incredible. [0:03:46] Rebecca Nackson: I do have to say, it's not just because I'm in this small booth with the two of you, that there is something extra special about the Braze community and the vibe here at LTR of really cool brands sharing those. Like I think everybody is a little bit geeking out with one another. I tell clients of ours that, when you're signing your contract, you're not just signing on for this tool. You're part of a community. And I'm really seeing that here. And maybe it is a little self fulfilling because, if you've taken the time out of your schedule to come to an event, you're probably more likely to be both learning and sharing. But I'm seeing that people from various brands don't do the same thing at all, but are really connecting about how they're using Braze and just how they're trying to solve these problems in general. [0:04:36] Dave Goldstein: It's amazing. It makes me think, actually, the conversation that I had with Steven yesterday, Steven Moy in particular, shout out to Steven Moy. He said, people don't buy brands, they join brands. [0:04:51] Rebecca Nackson: Oh, I love that. [0:04:51] Dave Goldstein: And I love that. Right? [0:04:53] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:04:53] Dave Goldstein: I think that's not always the case. The truth is like the brands that are killing it, their customers are the ones that are joining the brand. [0:05:02] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah, that's right. That's right. [0:05:03] Dave Goldstein: And I love what you said, right? [0:05:04] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:05:05] Dave Goldstein: Like I think that's spot on. It's like, you want to be part of a community of people that are doing incredible things. [0:05:11] Rebecca Nackson: Yep. So, one of the reasons that I started consulting on this is because, as you guys know, I'm a two time Braze client myself. And it was very much the experience that I went through of choosing, integrating, launching, maximizing my own use of the tool that I thought, okay, I needed help when I was doing that. And part of the stress or the questions come from you're talking to competing sales people and you feel like I don't know who to choose. And so, one thing that I tell people now is, look at the brands that are using. Like that's proof. Right? And I have just always been struck by the caliber of the clients. And I think that that says a lot. Like it's clear that they're investing a lot in their marketing technology. And, if they've been there for a number of years, that certainly sends a good signal. [0:06:04] P.J. Bruno: Yep. [0:06:05] Rebecca Nackson: And the second time that I ultimately selected Braze when I was going through that process, I remember coming to an event. And I was there in large part because I just was a big fan of the brands that were in the invitation. And to just be there and get to talk to them, for those people that know me, they already know how geeky I am. And, for those that are listening, they'll learn. But those are like celebrities to me. [0:06:29] P.J. Bruno: Right. [0:06:30] Rebecca Nackson: You walk around. You see the billboards. You see the commercials. [0:06:33] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. Yeah. [0:06:33] Rebecca Nackson: You don't know that there's human beings. [0:06:34] Dave Goldstein: They're in the subway cars, full takeover. [0:06:36] Rebecca Nackson: Yep. Yep. [0:06:37] P.J. Bruno: And, as your fan girling, they walk up and they're like, hey, do you want to run a panel actually? And you're like, what? [0:06:43] Rebecca Nackson: I'm looking behind me. They must be talking to somebody from Casper right now. They can't possibly want me. [0:06:47] P.J. Bruno: Exactly. [0:06:48] Dave Goldstein: Are there any brands in particular that are absolutely nailing it, in your opinion, who you're really like fan girling out about where you're like, wow, that marketing got me. [0:06:58] Rebecca Nackson: Oh, God. Yeah. We joke that, actually when you talk about the subway, we joke that our own growth hacking is by reaching out to everybody that's either advertising on podcasts or advertising in the subway. But what I'm really enjoying is I like a good underdog. I like a comeback story. So, I love seeing what's happening with retail and like the direct to consumer brands, but tying it into their in store experiences, the quote unquote digital transformation that's going on, but how those in-person experiences come together. And P.J., something that we've talked about is, every time there's a transition happening, let's say like the end of retail, right, everybody wants to act like it's the first time- [0:07:45] Dave Goldstein: The apocalypse. [0:07:47] Rebecca Nackson: The apocalypse is coming. But this has been happening since the beginning of advertising. So, it's really cool to see the brands that embrace it and think about it as this great challenge or maybe even get out ahead of it. I love that moment. Your back is against the wall for a minute, and then you lean in. And it's just a pleasure to watch it. [0:08:06] P.J. Bruno: And that's what Notable is doing. You guys are the team that helps them lean in, as opposed to like push themselves away. [0:08:13] Rebecca Nackson: In consulting, what I've learned, there's these two scenarios of either, there's the lean in like we want to get ahead of it. We know what we know. We know what we don't know. And it's interesting to us, focus is such an important aspect to what we do. And so, it's a pleasure to partner with somebody else who is really focused on their core business. And it's a great partner to us. Like it's actually much more interesting to work with somebody who's leaning in and has an opinion. So, we don't want them to just relegate that to us. [0:08:41] P.J. Bruno: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [0:08:42] Dave Goldstein: Do it all. Come up with everything for us. [0:08:43] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:08:43] P.J. Bruno: Right. [0:08:44] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. Because then they can't appreciate how great what we just did was. [0:08:47] P.J. Bruno: Right. The benefits of a partner to a service. [0:08:50] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:08:51] P.J. Bruno: It's just such a different thing. [0:08:52] Rebecca Nackson: Absolutely. And then, the other scenario is somebody who sort of fought it until the last possible minute. And now, they're in this moment where- [0:09:05] P.J. Bruno: In the hole a little bit. [0:09:06] Rebecca Nackson: They're in the hole a little bit. And so, that's an equally challenging and an exciting opportunity. And we try as much as we can to say, it's always the least expensive and the most successful to try to do it early on. But it's not always from the brands that you would expect it to be either, which is a big lesson that I've learned. And what's really fun is... And I sort of mentioned that in terms of the brands here, I think what's really interesting is when you can talk about a scenario, an example I've used before is we've worked with streaming partners before. We're working now with somebody in the fast food space. And, if you can think of an example that worked really well in streaming, and you can apply it to the QSR, the quick serve restaurant, what's great about that is like let's not do something that's the fifth streaming company to apply this technique. Let's be the first QSR to apply this technique and vice versa. So, for us, we as an agency, we get a lot of pleasure out of working with partners across the space. I mentioned focus. And so, I think it's like knowing where to focus and knowing where to go broad. For us, I've talked about the three T's that we think about tooling, teaming, and tactics. [0:10:27] Dave Goldstein: Oh, I like that. [0:10:28] Rebecca Nackson: You can tell that I was a marketer. [0:10:31] Dave Goldstein: The three T's. Notable Nackson. [0:10:33] Rebecca Nackson: I like alliteration. So, we think that, when it comes to the tactics, maybe that's where we can be a little more broad and that's where we can look across the industry. And where we are really focused for us it's the familiarity with the set of tools. I have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder being that I was a marketer who has hired agencies and consultants before. I know what the reputation can be of like, we don't want to bring somebody and who is just going to drop some recommendations on our desk. [0:11:03] Dave Goldstein: You have sat in those shoes before. [0:11:04] Rebecca Nackson: I have sat right in those- [0:11:05] P.J. Bruno: Right. [0:11:05] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. Which is so important, by the way. [0:11:07] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah, I think so. It's interesting to me there's not more people that have been sort of on that side. But the ego in me thought like, okay, now I'm going to go out there and do that thing that I had done to me so many times. [0:11:19] P.J. Bruno: Right. [0:11:19] Rebecca Nackson: But so, it's really important to me that the entire team knows how to do the work. So, our suggestions only go as far as the tool that's going to be able to make that happen and vice versa. The stereotype about a marketer can be that you're going to come in and say, let's run a Superbowl ad. Let's not worry about how we're going to pay for that or measuring the impact. Right? We know that, when we're suggesting something to our clients, that the tools can do that. But the flip side of that is, there's somebody on my team who he is most excited about what can we do with Braze that nobody else is doing? Let's get beyond the obvious functionality and let's take those features and let's reimagine them in ways that nobody else has done that. Like he feels like most people are only scratching the surface. [0:12:10] P.J. Bruno: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [0:12:11] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. Yeah. [0:12:12] Rebecca Nackson: So, it's actually that really pragmatic approach to understanding the tool very well that counterintuitively allows us to be super creative. [0:12:21] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. [0:12:22] P.J. Bruno: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [0:12:22] Dave Goldstein: And there's like a fine line that you need to walk when you do that as well. [0:12:26] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:12:27] Dave Goldstein: It makes me think of a Tom Fishburne, Marketoonist. [0:12:31] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:12:31] Dave Goldstein: He and I were cracking up yesterday. We were talking about this cartoon that popped up in my LinkedIn newsfeed where it was two panes. And, in one pane, it was an executive sitting behind a desk with like two subordinates. And he was like, we need to do something groundbreaking, game-changing that nobody has ever done before. And then, in the next pane, it was the two subordinates presenting to him and he's like, this seems kind of risky. Tell me some other brands that have done this. [0:12:57] Rebecca Nackson: Oh my god. Oh, that's so brilliant. Well, we were talking about alliteration, but now the pun of like the fact that you're talking about panes. But the reason... Talk about pain, P-A-I-N, I think that... I was just talking about that presentation because another reason that I love consulting on what we do is that we do sort of bill ourselves as being part therapist as well. [0:13:24] Dave Goldstein: I love it. [0:13:26] P.J. Bruno: It's so good. [0:13:26] Rebecca Nackson: And, I mean, that's that moment in that room yesterday, right? Where we're all like leaning in and we're watching these panels. And then, we have this moment of just sharing something. And I think that I felt very isolated a lot as the marketer. And so many times in our meetings, our client's eyes will light up at these different things that we're saying and they'll start laughing like, that sounds like us. You know? And they've really been presenting these ideas and they've had that moment of people pushing back. And everybody from every department is doing the very best that they can. Right? But we all have those moments where we feel like we're fighting this fight and everybody is just trying to tell us to stay in our lane. And sometimes, if nothing else, it's so important for another marketer to hear, I've been there. [0:14:14] P.J. Bruno: The whole idea of the therapist, it just lends itself so much to customer satisfaction, customer experience. [0:14:21] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:14:22] P.J. Bruno: And we just had Andy Carvel in here talking about that. [0:14:24] Rebecca Nackson: He's a hero of mine, by the way. [0:14:26] P.J. Bruno: Right? [0:14:26] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:14:27] P.J. Bruno: You are fan girling. [0:14:27] Rebecca Nackson: I am fan girling. [0:14:28] P.J. Bruno: But he's over there looking through the pane being like, oh my God, is that Rebecca Nackson? Oh my god. But he was talking about like making sure you come to that conversation, and make sure it's bespoke, and make sure you're not trying to just re-kit their stack with things you're familiar with. [0:14:42] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:14:43] P.J. Bruno: Listen. [0:14:43] Rebecca Nackson: That was the thing that hit me over the head when I started consulting. I'm going to come in and I'm going to have this right way. And I'm going to know the to suggest. And I'm going to know the right way to suggest them. And the human aspect of this, of consulting, but it's what all of us are doing, right? The human aspect of what we're doing with marketing, that thing of saying, hey, person out there, I have a service that I think is going to make your life better, and you're trying to connect with the audience, that's in what all of us are doing. And being able to say to somebody else, I hear you. I understand what keeps you up at night. I understand the fight that you're fighting in the office. Maybe I understand the fight that you're fighting outside of the office. I'm here to make it just a little bit easier for you. And you guys are doing that when you're reaching out to your clients, right? The thing that I sometimes also say to our clients is like, give the salespeople a break sometimes too. Because they're kind of knocking on your door saying, hey, hardworking person out there. I have a tool that I think might make your life a little- [0:15:45] P.J. Bruno: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [0:15:46] Rebecca Nackson: And we're all like moving those emails like into our spam folder. Right? [0:15:51] P.J. Bruno: Right. [0:15:51] Rebecca Nackson: But intelligently leverage those sales people, help them do your job. Help them make the case, right? [0:15:58] P.J. Bruno: Totally. Don't just create weird friction because you're like, oh, your goals aren't my goals. [0:16:02] Rebecca Nackson: Right. [0:16:02] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. [0:16:03] P.J. Bruno: Like arm them with the tool. [0:16:04] Dave Goldstein: We're in this together. [0:16:05] Rebecca Nackson: Right. But so, really being able to connect and really being able to come in and say to somebody, I hear you. And, exactly like you're referencing Andy's comment about, if you just come in the door and you say, I have a bunch of tools... Like I was in a pitch or a conversation where somebody said, I feel like everybody comes in and they tell me the tools that they have and they haven't even listened to my use cases first. And to be able to say, yeah, I understand. I've been in those conversations too. Right? It's always a reminder. [0:16:36] P.J. Bruno: It seems like common sense too. [0:16:37] Rebecca Nackson: I know. [0:16:37] P.J. Bruno: But it really is... Apparently not. [0:16:40] Rebecca Nackson: I know. [0:16:40] Dave Goldstein: Is notabletherapy.com available? Someone should go on GoDaddy right now. [0:16:46] Rebecca Nackson: I think I hear a pivot coming up right now. [0:16:49] P.J. Bruno: That's an idea for some video content. [0:16:50] Rebecca Nackson: Oh. [0:16:51] P.J. Bruno: Oh. [0:16:52] Dave Goldstein: Oh. Look at that. Magic is happening in the booth right now. [0:16:57] Rebecca Nackson: Oh my god. [0:16:57] P.J. Bruno: There you go. Let's take it offline. All right. So, anything that you're really excited about, Rebecca? We only got a few moments left, so just love to hear from you. What's big on the agenda for Notable? Big projects you're excited about, initiatives, partnerships, what are you personally stoked about? [0:17:14] Rebecca Nackson: This is the part where my team is like already mouthing the words of what I'm going to say. But we are doing a lot at Notable with predictive analytics. We sort of like work with our clients on utilizing Braze really intelligently. And then, we're helping them measure the results of that. And we're saying, not only is A winning over B or B winning over A, but are you doing more than if you weren't doing anything at all? Now we're closing that loop and starting at the beginning of like, who are the audience segments you should even be messaging? And, if you were paying attention to the Cambridge Analytica stories, you know that there's positive and negative implications for this. But what I found really interesting in that documentary was this idea of marketing is not just about the right message, but also figuring out who are the people that you can even influence in the first place. And so, getting really intelligent about who are those Dave Goldsteins out there that, if you just show them that ad one more time for the sneakers, right? And the thing I love about that is, it was in the back of your mind, but you have a million things going on. [0:18:16] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. [0:18:16] Rebecca Nackson: And you maybe you forgot even for a minute. [0:18:19] Dave Goldstein: Yeah. [0:18:19] Rebecca Nackson: And so, you saw that ad and you were like- [0:18:20] Dave Goldstein: Oh, I definitely forgot for a minute. [0:18:21] Rebecca Nackson: For a minute. And there they were, right? [0:18:23] P.J. Bruno: Almost ordered them again. [0:18:24] Dave Goldstein: Almost. [0:18:27] Rebecca Nackson: And then, on the other hand, those people that were already going to go out and buy them, don't show them. So, sometimes I'm telling people, it's just as much about who you should be messaging and who you shouldn't be. Right? And so, we love the science application that's now coming to the beginning of that. And then, that cycle. Then you measure its impacts and start all over again. So, that's going to be big in 2020 for us. [0:18:51] Dave Goldstein: Wow. [0:18:51] P.J. Bruno: Predictive. [0:18:51] Dave Goldstein: Wow. I mean, clearly you are the consummate professional. [0:18:55] Rebecca Nackson: Thanks. [0:18:55] Dave Goldstein: You are an unbelievable expert in the space. [0:18:58] Rebecca Nackson: Oh. [0:18:58] Dave Goldstein: You know growth inside and out. [0:18:59] Rebecca Nackson: You say that to everyone in this space. [0:19:01] Dave Goldstein: I don't. I don't. But what I will say, your key differentiator, Notable Therapy. I'll tell you, I've walked a mile in those shoes, right? [0:19:10] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:19:10] Dave Goldstein: Like that is so- [0:19:11] P.J. Bruno: Those glittery pumps. [0:19:11] Dave Goldstein: Those glittery pumps. [0:19:11] Rebecca Nackson: Mine aren't nearly as great as Dave's, but I have walked in those shoes. [0:19:18] Dave Goldstein: It's an incredible thing to be able to relate to people on the... Humanity in action. Right? [0:19:23] P.J. Bruno: There we go. [0:19:23] Dave Goldstein: On the human level. Right? Right? In a natural, considerate way. Yeah. [0:19:26] Rebecca Nackson: Yeah. [0:19:26] Dave Goldstein: And you guys are incredible. And thank you so much for all your contributions to the community, everything you continue to do. And I'm so excited to see all the levels up that Notable is going to take this entire industry. It's amazing to watch you guys work. [0:19:41] Rebecca Nackson: Thanks. [0:19:42] P.J. Bruno: Seriously. [0:19:42] Rebecca Nackson: We talked about LTR last year. We talked about MAU last year. Here's to what's going to be at LTR next year. [0:19:49] Dave Goldstein: LTR 2020. [0:19:50] P.J. Bruno: Can you imagine? No spoilers, but... Anyways, Rebecca Nackson, CEO, founder of Notable Growth. Thanks so much for being here. Anybody out there, please, if you're thinking marketing strategy, look into Notable Growth. Rebecca has been around the block. She's been a client time and time again. She will align. She will find the best tool and the best strategy for you. So, Rebecca, thanks again. [0:20:12] Rebecca Nackson: Thanks for that. [0:20:13] P.J. Bruno: Of course. [0:20:14] Dave Goldstein: That said it all, Rebecca. [0:20:16] P.J. Bruno: Dave, the golden boy, Goldstein. I love you man. [0:20:20] Dave Goldstein: Love you too, brother. [0:20:20] P.J. Bruno: Thanks for being in here. And thank you guys for joining us. You take care. [0:20:24]