Business
Today on the Leafy Podcast, Chris Seveney sits down with our Leafy hosts to educate all of us on the ins and outs of real estate note investing. As a real estate professional for more than 20 years and having developed over $750M in real estate, Chris is known for honesty, integrity, professionalism, passion, and tenacity in all his dealings. Chris shares with us his note investing knowledge of investing in first position performing and non-performing notes. He has been able to build his note investing portfolio to over $5M and his overall real estate portfolio to over $7M. Chris cautions us to make sure the paperwork is in order and properly transferred when the property was bought and sold before investing in the note. Also make sure you are buying occupied properties over vacant properties. If you have people in the house, you become the lender and not the owner to have to sell the vacant house. Chris also explains the benefits of note buys; one perk is you don’t have to worry about tenants, since you are the mortgage company, you won’t be called on for maintenance issues and other property rental difficulties. On the other hand, some pitfalls are that you don’t get to walk through a house before buying the note, and Chris tells us a few instances of the bizarre properties he’s invested. In parting, Chris tells us to network and get to know people in the note investing business and be patient, it is a long term game. The first 2 years expect to reinvest in your note investing business, then it becomes good cash flow. To find Chris Seveney, visit: Chris’s Website: 7einvestments.comChris’s Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/101028197428726/Good Deeds Note Investing Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/good-deeds-note-investing-podcast/id1442697566 Episode Notes: Speaker 1 0:00 Welcome to the Leafy Podcast, helping real estate investors and entrepreneurs grow. Say hello to your hosts, Jennifer Gilgoric and Brian Price, founders of Leafy Legal Services. Teaching you how to protect your assets, grow your business and manage your wealth. Let's start the show. Speaker 2 0:18 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Leafy Podcast. I'm Tammy, your podcast manager. Thank you so much for joining us today. Today, we've got both of our awesome hosts on the line with us. We've got Jennifer Gilgoric and Brian Price from Leafy Legal Services. And they have another interesting guest for us today with an awesome interview. So I'm gonna pass it on to them so we can get started. Hey, Brian, and Jennifer, how's it going? Speaker 3 0:42 Good. It's hot here today. I was just griping about how hot it was. But now it's gonna get even hotter because we've got this really amazing guest. So the person that we're talking to today has been in has been a professional real estate for more than 20 years in real estate and development. In fact, they've developed over 750 million dollars worth of real estate. But they're also a note investor on the side. And their portfolio is now over 7 million. And currently, they're a director and so they're working. So this is going to hit home to a lot of us. They've got their nine to five, right? They're working as a director in a real estate development firm. But then they've also been building this really incredible, credible note business on the side. So I want us to give a great big round of applause to Chris Seveney. And Chris, welcome to the show. And it was seven, like the number seveneinvestments.com. Chris Seveney. Welcome to the show, Chris. Speaker 4 1:41 Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I'm excited to be on today and share a little bit of our story and let people know what we do. Speaker 5 1:50 Awesome. Great. Yeah. Welcome, Chris. So yeah, why don't we get straight into it? It's like with note investing, you know, what is it and how did you get started? Speaker 4 1:58 Yeah, so most people don't even know this exists. That's the unique thing. And it's I was in real estate for close to 20 years, and I didn't know it existed. And in a nutshell, what it is, is you're buying loans from the bank. So many of us own a home. And many of us have mortgages on a home. And essentially, your mortgage gets sold off. And a lot of banks don't hold them, they sell them to government entities. But a lot of times, especially from a decade ago, these loans when people stopped paying, the government sold them off to hedge funds and eventually make their way down to main stream investors like myself, so we're not actually buying the property. We're buying the loans or we're like a lender is really how it works in a nutshell. Speaker 3 2:44 Do you have to get certified to do note investing or what do you have to do to be able to be a note investor? Speaker 4 2:49 So in certain states, you do need licensing. But what's interesting is, most of these states and government entities never envisioned that oans will get sold off like they do. So banks play by a completely different set of rules than us have investors do. Because also, it's our money and our debt. It's not like institutional money or government money, where you have to play by a lot of rules. So it's kind of like you lending you know, your cousin, 50 bucks. There's certain rules you got to follow. But, you know, we still have to follow a lot of the laws with like Dodd Frank, which came out a decade ago, but for most part, you know, certain states you need licensing other states. You don't it's really a state by state thing. Speaker 3 3:35 Well, but you said the people aren't paying on the note. So how are you going to make money if no one's paying on the note, like explain that for the people who are like what? Speaker 4 3:44 Yeah, that's kind of the first question is what is note investing the second person after they hear that is, why would you buy something somebody isn't paying on? And a great example would be, say there's a property worth, you know, $100,000 They owe $100,000 on the property as well, and it fluctuates. Sometimes they're underwater, meaning they owe more. And sometimes they may have some equity. Typically, you're buying it at a discount. So I'm buying, I may buy that loan anywhere from maybe 40 to $60,000. So you're paying, you know, 50% discount, and that person may be a year behind. And we've got a lot more flexibility. You know, if that person wants to stay in that property, it's always best to try and keep them in the property and work it out and be like, okay, you know, you've your $10,000 past, do you know what's modified alone, get you paying again, and then get that payment stream to get them back on track. And then once they're back on track, you know, you can turn around and maybe sell that to another investor at 70 cents on the dollar, for example, or 80 cents on the dollar. So, you know, it's really because you're buying it at a discount is where you can make that money. Unfortunately times you may have to foreclose on the asset. In those instances, you got to make sure that your acquisition plus all your legal expenses are less than what you can sell it for. So if it does sell, and you have to take the property and be a property owner, you're selling it for more than you happen to it. Speaker 5 5:19 Okay, so what if the note closes? Or the note defaults, then you actually own the asset? Speaker 4 5:25 If you take it through the legal process? Yes. Speaker 5 5:29 Okay. Speaker 4 5:29 Yeah. It's not something that we don't like to do. And I would say on typically it's under 10%, I'd say would be the amount of times we have to take it through fruition legal. Sometimes people may need a nudge by having the attorney send them a letter and then usually that brings them to the table. Speaker 5 5:49 Got it. And then when it comes to you'll finding these these notes and such you know, how do you know what what would be a good thing to look at versus something that is is likely not gonna, you know, is gonna foreclose you're gonna be underwater with? Speaker 4 6:04 Yeah, so it's very so first question is, you know where are you kind of find these things and it's about relationships with kind of hedge funds and people who sell these, there's it's not a, you know, it's not a big crowd, it's kind of like you know your high school click of people who are involved in the industry and everybody knows everybody. And you know, some people may bounce from one company to the other from some of the larger firms. But then knowing what to look at, there's really, you know, two, two paths you go down. One is, so I'll mention I invest in first mortgages because people can have lines of credit and so forth, which that's a whole we could spend hours talking about that but so, you know, with the first mortgage, you know, the first thing you're concerned about is the property its value and its condition because you don't want to pay for a note, that's, you know, paying more than what the property is worth because you're going to get yourself in trouble. So that's one is getting that understanding. But the challenge with it is the risk is, you know, if you can only drive by the property, you know, I can't go knock on your door and say, hey, let me in. I'm your lender, I want to see where you inside your house looks like, you know, you'll be like, get the hell out of here. And especially, you know, if somebody's not paying the mortgage, typically their house is not going to have you know, brand new flooring, kitchen appliances and going to look like Cinderella's castle. So you got to kind of weigh that aspect of it and kind of go from there. And the other is the loan itself and making sure that the paperwork is in order. Meaning that if it's been sold, I know many people have heard about the robo signers from like a decade ago. And so you need to make sure that it was properly transferred throughout selling because what happened decades ago, people are just signing for other people and stuff and it's fraud and you got to make sure kind of the path that it's been sold has been, it's like when you buy a house, you know, for title insurance, they would go back and check the history to make sure everything's okay. It's kind of that's what you're doing is I'm running a title search on the property to make sure everything was done properly. Speaker 3 8:15 So how did somebody with a civil engineering degree end up doing this? Which seems so heavy finance and mortgages and stuff like that? If you can do it, that means like, other people can do it, too. So what was the how did you stumble into this from what you were doing with your with your degree? And it's like you how did you even figure this one out? Speaker 4 8:36 Yeah, so my steps were, I went from civil engineer to working for a general contractor overseeing construction projects, to getting burnt out to working for a real estate development firm, who people are much more entrepreneurial and a lot of them have rentals and other properties. My wife and I, we built our primary residence. In perfect timing. We had a lot have equity in it because we act as a con the general contractor, then we went and bought two rentals that needed to be rehabbed. And after rehabbing two rentals, she looked at me and we looked at each other and said, Okay, that's enough. Speaker 3 9:14 Work. Yeah, Speaker 4 9:15 yeah. So we were spending, I mean, the weekends away from the kids, you know, and so forth, trying to make sure they're getting done and honestly, personally wasn't worth it. So she was like, okay, that's enough. So I'm like, okay, I gotta figure out something I can do. In my wife's in finance, and at the time, I started going back to school and getting a master's in real estate finance. And I stumbled upon this on a website called BiggerPockets. And basically somebody who's like, well, you can do this at night, you don't have to go visit the properties. You know, in Washington, DC, if you want to buy a property, it hits the market, like you have to be at that showing like in an hour or it's gone and working full time with kids. We'd never get to a property in time. With this type of investing. I can you know, I get list and then they give you like a week to put in indicative bids which are really just, you know throwing it at the dartboard. If everything pans out what you'd pay, then you'd spend the time to send somebody to look at it like a realtor. you order a title report, so I never I visited, you know, have probably 300 notes, iPhone Plus or minus, I think I visited one asset, actually, is what I personally driven by out of 300. Wow. You know, and most of them are in the Midwest. So, you know, I don't know, traveled to the Midwest, for the most part. So, you know, there's one in Maryland that had gone by, so out of give you an idea, it can be done anywhere, anytime, and I literally my wife goes to bed at 930 10 I'll be up from 10 o'clock to 1130 kind of doing my thing are in first thing in the morning. So that's how I juggle everything. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Speaker 5 10:58 It's interesting because yeah, it It allows you to kind of expand a lot easier without having to be just, you Speaker 4 11:05 No, it does and you're not, you know, when you're the lender to, you know, somebody toilet breaks, they're not calling the property manager or calling you, you know, if you're you own your house, your toilet breaks, you don't call your mortgage company, you know, you call someone else to fix it. So it's kind of from that sense, you know, you want to make sure property is in good condition, but you don't have to deal with, you know, as we say, in the business, tenants, toilets, termites, as landlords do, Speaker 5 11:29 Right, absolutely. And then, you know, how, what are some of the pitfalls and looking at, you know, notes and even, you know, people that provide these notes and such, you know, obviously, they're keeping the best ones for themselves. So how do you find the kind of the diamond in the rough that you're looking for? Speaker 4 11:47 Yeah, so typically, though, you know, they're usually lower valued assets. And the reason why is when you think about managing these $500,000 more Judge takes the same amount of work as a $50,000 mortgage. But you know, your risk is much higher on a $500,000 mortgage. So these firms that own them, typically will keep the half million and all the 50,000 and stuff, they toss it aside because it's too much work for them, you know, because they have, you know, payroll, you know, their entities, their full fledged funds, where people like myself, you know, kind of, you know, you know, single, you know, it's it's me myself and I, you know, I can you know, profit off of those were for them, they have too much overhead. So, that's one aspect of how I can get these. The pitfalls. are, you know, the risks involved, you know, I had a property that from the outside actually looked really really nice. We thought it was occupied the guy you know, the car parked in the driveway. Lo and behold, the guy actually was living next door renting because he had a plumbing leak or a plumbing drain in the basement clogged instead Calling roto rooter for 150 bucks come fix it. You at five feet of water accumulate in his basement. Speaker 3 13:06 Oh, it's not just regular water, it's sewage water in the basement. Speaker 4 13:11 Yeah. So this house which would have was, you know, worth we would have was probably worth about 100,000 in its previous condition ended up being worth about 30 grand. Wow. Because of it. I mean, it had so much mold in this place. I mean, the ceiling fan was like, covered in mold. I mean, that he left I mean the TV in there was still it was an old tube TV was covered in mold. I mean, it was like the guy literally just was like eh, screw it and then move next door Speaker 3 13:44 And just let it rot. You'd have to, I mean, you can't fix that. You just have to let bulldoze it right. Speaker 4 13:49 Actually a contractor that I was so glad somebody finally was able to get the water out of the basement once we figured it out, which that's a whole nother story. That took forever. Actually, a guy ended up buying it. And he ended up because he worked in like, mold-hygienists type work. So he was able to do it himself. But otherwise most people would have had to bulldoze the property. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The stories like you hear and, you know, there's always multiple sides of the stories where people I'd say, treat borrowers incorrectly. And on the same token, it's like anything, there's borrowers who play the system, and do things. I mean, some of these properties. I mean, I had one where a person had nine dogs living in a house all by itself. And it just, I mean, they weren't cleaning up after. I mean, it was I mean, Speaker 3 14:45 And they lived in the house with them. Speaker 4 14:46 What's that? Speaker 3 14:47 No, they just let the dogs live there. Speaker 4 14:49 It was the dogs lived there. Yeah. Speaker 3 14:52 Well, that's dog abuse. That's horrible. And then you can't see the property. Okay, so guess that's scary. So if anybody wanted to know that's a little bit scary. How can people not get that? Speaker 4 15:03 Well, and here's the other thing too like today in today's world, you'll have cases like that and you can't do anything because I'll evicting anybody in all these states and it's carte blanche it's you know, it's you know, stuff like that so you know, what are you Speaker 3 15:21 okay so why should someone get into notes if that's really scary that makes me go oh, I handle that you know, whatever. But really if you wanted to get into notes those are few and far between you know, you get those Yeah. But what do you need to do to get started for from what you're saying I'm listening to it and I'm like, wow, there's a bit of a learning curve with this. Right so so what do you think needs to happen for that? Like how long did it take you to get the education you needed just for free? You went on BiggerPockets, you know, we love BP here. And then you what, what did you have to do to really get your first deal and figure that one out. Speaker 4 16:02 Yeah, it took me about six months. And that is probably a little accelerated compared to some other people. Because I have the real estate background and had some finance background. People sometimes will rush it and be like, Oh, I'm just gonna buy it to learn. And usually, it's, you know, they pay that price, that heavy price. You know, the biggest aspect is first understanding the lingo. Like most people don't know the difference between a mortgage and a note, you know, it's like, oh, I have a mortgage on my house. Well, you actually have a mortgage and the note, which the note is basically the loan, it's like, Hey, I'm giving you 50 bucks here, sign this piece of paper. The mortgage is actually the ball and chain that ties to the house. So if they stopped paying the loan, the mortgage is that document that says, hey, your collateral is a house, that's what I can can take from you. So most people, you know, that's the first part is understanding But that component, and then when people sell these, there's a path that happens that you kind of just need to understand the process and the players involved. That's the first step that takes probably a month or two. And then the next is really understanding the costs that are involved because it's not a one size fits all where, you know, we place a roof for the most part costs, you know, certain markets a little higher than others. But, you know, here in different states that foreclosures are very different. There's judicial, which is you go in front of a judge, then there's non judicial, which is, Hey, you know, basically it's you file a paperwork and then it's sold off in a month or two, judicial can take 18 months and cost anywhere from five to 10,000. Non judicial might cost you 2500. So, you know, if you miscalculate your costs and all the costs involved, it can be an expensive learning curve. Well, so I tell people, typically, you'll want to start, you know, taking, you know, six to 12 months. And it's challenging too, because it's like rehabbing a house, there's not a book you can go read that tells you how to rehab a house, you can understand kind of the basics of how a house works. But until you dive in, is really where you're gonna really get the most experience. So that's why we recommend a lot of people kind of team with somebody more experienced early on, to kind of use their knowledge and learn and get some mentoring from them. Speaker 3 18:31 Do you do that? Do you? Do you mentor with someone? Or do you mentor people with 70 investments now? Speaker 4 18:37 We're actually going to be rolling that out. So we have teamed with a lot of people in the past and what I've done is a lot of people that wanted to learn kind of I brought them on and you know, showed them the ropes, but it was never formal. So one of the things actually I'm in the process of doing some rebranding with the website and other things is offering kind of a management flash mentoring program for investors. Speaker 3 19:03 Yeah, because I think that they would need to, you know, and I'm in this space and I do, you know, we here legally what we do complicated things with asset protection and using the power of anonymity and legal structures and how to set up businesses and taxes, right. But even I'm listening to this going, you know, what, okay. Because how do you get the list? You know, how do you know how to vet the list? Where are you getting this list from? How do you know if a property is going to have a judicial or non judicial foreclosure? You know, those are that's a lot of stuff you have to learn. Speaker 4 19:37 Yeah, and there's a lot of players involved because you know, first and foremost, you know, your that your two number one A's and one B's are your attorney. Absolutely. So you'll want an attorney in each state that you deal with so you can pick their brain and get an understanding and, you know, hopefully you can find an attorney that is a little more flexible. And not one that builds you buy that every 10 minutes, because it gets to be a very expensive learning curve. If you know that's your $450 attorney bills on a 10 minute basis versus one that when the drive in the car may be a little more flexible with you. And the other is they come servicing companies. So those are the companies that actually collect all the payments. So I never have anybody ever send me a payment. It's all done to a third party because, you know, you got calculate late fees and deferred interest and all this other stuff that they use sophisticated software for. That's not something you want to do, because if you screw it up and you get sued, then you're going to pay a very, very heavy penalty. And also it's something again, you need to be licensed that and trained professional that does that. And it's a lot of work and it's not something somebody should be taking on Iran. Speaker 3 20:55 So someone is interested in this, but they want to avoid some fall. So we know you have to get edge educating first. But what are some of the other biggest mistakes you've seen people people make that they probably need to avoid? Speaker 4 21:11 Yeah, one is buying a note on a vacant property. You know, I had somebody call me other day, hey, I want to buy this in their last time they paid was 2010 in the property's vacant, I'm like, what do you think a property has been sitting around vacant for 10 years looks like you know, and from, you know, from that perspective, you know, I don't care what they tell you, it looks like the place is probably gonna, you know, you might as well take a bulldozer or, you know, you're gonna own that property. And most of us who are in this business have no interest in owning the property because that's why we got out of being a tenant, you know, or landlord, I'm sorry, is we'd rather just be the lender. So that's one is you know, making sure you know, you a put eyes on the property when you go to buy it. That's absolutely you know, something you want to do. If it's vacant, typically now I just walk away from the vacant properties because you just end up owning them. And it's so much headache trying to find a realtor that deals with these types of properties because there's no money in it for them, you know, when they're making 3% on, you know, a vacant property that's probably going to sell for 30 40 grand. I mean, it's not worth 1,000 bucks to them. And no, they'd rather go, especially in today's markets, and I mean, real estate still selling right now. They'd rather go sell $150,000 houses that are updated, and they can put on their website. They don't want some boarded up rundown property that's, you know, been sitting there for 10 years. Speaker 3 22:37 Oh, yeah. Not with new mortgages or having mortgage rates that are rock bottom. I mean, even now, we were talking about refinancing and I was talking to a mortgage professional, and they said, I won't even feel comfortable as a professional even offer that product. Because in I said, So what you're saying is it actually be easier for some people to get a new house rather than refinance faster. And she said, yeah, you'd actually make more more money doing that was like that is interesting as well is it's crazy times we live in and it'll change again. But that's what we're dealing with right now. So yeah. Speaker 4 23:09 No, it is it is crazy that because we fortunately have a credit union that let us refi because most of the places won't refi like, oh, you go buy new we'll finance that all day long, but we don't want to deal with a reprice. And I think Wells Fargo just came out and mentioned something that if you have a jumbo loan, you have to have a million dollar net worth to refi. Speaker 3 23:31 Yeah, yeah. It's like it's like it's like crazy. Crazy. Crazy. Crazy. So what's your what's your advice for someone who wants to enter this in start this? Speaker 4 23:42 Yeah. So three things. Typically I tell people is network, network, network. You know, that's three right there. Because there's like I said, there's not a lot of people in the business and you want to just get started to get to know people talk to people. It is a business that the term that gets tossed around a lot called Co Op petition. And because most of us are smaller investors that you know, people might buy 10, 20, you know, hundred a year in a $30 trillion industry and you know, millions millions alones it's not really difficult to have inventory for people to buy. So typically it's never me verse you on an asset, you know, if I go after an asset, someone else's and they get it, okay, great, they got it. I'll go on to the next one. So we use the term coopertition because most people like to help each other in the business because we're all basically people working nine to five are just getting going in this and I'll try to make a better life for each other and for our families or whatever it may be. So there's never any negative connotations kind of like some fix and flippers are always like, you know, after each other competing for properties. Speaker 3 24:52 Oh, yeah, you watch HGTV and they even have a competition between flippers and they are just vicious vicious bees. [Inaudible]. Speaker 4 25:01 So it's so it's little opposite in this business where people are there to help. And, you know, I recommend network and find somebody that you can talk to and just don't talk to one person talk to several people just to learn their styles. Because I mean, you know, be good at one thing, and somebody else might be very good at something else. So you can kind of take bits and pieces from people to learn and be patient. You know, it's not a business. No matter what these training gurus tell you, in every real estate venture, you want to do it, whether you're wholesaling, you're gonna make a million dollars, your first month you're flipping you're gonna make a million dollars, your first month or notes, you're not going to make a million your first month is a long term game. You know, I've been in it for years, the first two years, I really didn't make any money because I was just taking it and reinvesting it in myself and in the business. But now I've gotten to a point where, you know, we've got some nice cash flow for the next you know, 10, 20 years coming in the door that from loans that people are paying on so that's kind of, you know, the advice like typical real estate, you know, take it slow walk before you can run. Speaker 3 26:04 Yeah. Speaker 5 26:04 So it sounds like this, this kind of a investment is something that, you know, someone can do on a part time basis, even, they're just getting started that can actually scale because I know a lot of times, you know, especially coming like a flipper or something like that it becomes like a full time job pretty much from day one. So is that a fair assessment? Speaker 4 26:22 It is. And, you know, the other component to it as well is you don't need to have hundreds of thousands of dollars to get into this. You know, you can buy notes for you know, 10-20,000 you know, I recommend people about 20 grand to start getting in which, you know, in most locations, cross country that doesn't get you far, you know, or you need to go get alone, you know, to buy the property. We're here, you know, you might have, you know, a $50,000 property that maybe they owe 30,000 on it, and you can pick up that loan for maybe 13 or 15,000. And then you want to keep money of course, for legal earning, you know, some expenses usually around five to 7000 per loan. So, you know, it's something that there can be a lower barrier to entry and one place you'll see a lot of investors that come into this space are those who use their own self directed IRAs because they will invest in the notes because they can be passive and get the cash flow stream also they're not buying a property they're buying you a note where they can get in for a lower like said lower cost of entry. Speaker 3 27:30 Yeah, we have really good products that we use that are that are ours for SDRs and solo 401k is one that is very popular for our note investors and it's a smart tax strategy as well for that and so in addition to working all the time and then having a business at night that you do in the middle of night and all this you also have a podcast to the good deeds note investing pot podcast, correct, correct? Yes. Okay. Okay. So you have that okay. So if for people who are just coming in and the tail and you can of course listen to this on recordings. We have been talking to Chris Seveney. And that's S E V E N E Y. How to find him though is very easy. It is going to be seven the number seven, E like seven E, like his last name investments .com. Anyway, this is we're getting about the end of the show. Brian, did you have anything else you wanted to ask Chris? Speaker 5 28:23 About if if we were to start and you know, certain you you mentioned a number of times certain states have different laws and stuff. Are there certain states that you avoid or certain states that you try to go for when you're looking at these? notes? Speaker 3 28:37 Good question. Yes, yes. And yes. Speaker 4 28:41 Typically, the Northeast New York, New Jersey you know, those states are very difficult because a few things one is their taxes are insanely high. And what you got to remember if you're going to take a property back and make a profit We have to foreclose on it. You know, when you get it back, you know, you're gonna have to keep paying those taxes during that time. So that's one but also the legal process in those states can take years. In Georgia, for example, I had a loan where we filed for foreclosure on November 30. And the foreclosure sale was February 1, they do it on like the first Tuesday of the following two following months or something like that. It is like you blink and it's over. You know, it's like, you know, LASIK if you ever had LASIK surgery, which I had a few months ago, you know, but, you know, the those states can, they're just very, you know, difficult. They're very borrower friendly. So, typically the states I like to tell people to start in are kind of in towards the southeast, Tennessee, Missouri, Mississippi. Those are non judicial, so you know, the foreclosure can be faster, plus property prices are, you know, they're not astronomical, in most in most of those areas, you know, three bedroom, two bath house could be anywhere from, you know, 50 to 250,000. You know, if you want to get that in while I'm Northern Virginia, you know, you're at 800,000. Or if you're in New York, probably 2 million, who knows? I'm not sure. And upstate New York. So those are kind of where I shift people to start because it's little, you know, less risk involved with the legal process. Plus, you can get in better value on properties. Speaker 5 30:34 Okay. Speaker 3 30:36 Well, Chris, I want to thank you for answering all of our questions and for just bringing your expertise here. You've you've given us so much to think about. And if you want to find out more about Chris, Tammy is going to give you the information as we close the show. Thanks again, Chris, for being here with us at Leafy Podcast. Speaker 4 30:54 Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Speaker 2 30:56 Yeah. Thank you so much, Chris. And thank you, Jennifer, and Brian, for our hosts today, and I will have all of Chris's links in our show notes. So you can find us across any of the podcasting platforms and on social media, we are at Leafy Legal. And if you do have any questions that you would like me to pass on to Chris or if you have any comments about the show, please email me. That's Tammy T A M M Y, at Leafy Legal Services .com and I will get right back to you. We'd also love it if you would rate and comment us on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, any of those platforms. We're right there for you and we'd love to hear from you. So, thank you again, so much for listening. And we'll see you next time. Have a great day. Bye bye. Speaker 4 31:40 Thank you. Speaker 5 31:40 Thanks. 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